A study: Stereotypes in the LFD

85 Troll Hunter
5185
The reason for crying foul on this post are above in bold. The fact he that he states 28 and then mistyped 33 and 35 force my skepticism meter to tilt!

No one is immune to typos.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
9235
I just smell made up statistics. Im not arguing the points he makes. They are clear and in my experience pretty right on. I got a good laugh out of it on patch day as well.

I just had to mention it. Did you read my edited post?
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81 Blood Elf Death Knight
780
Not flaming here but I've been playing on and off since Vanilla and I don't think I've ran 180 instances =P
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85 Troll Hunter
5185
I just smell made up statistics. Im not arguing the points he makes. They are clear and in my experience pretty right on. I got a good laugh out of it on patch day as well.

I just had to mention it. Did you read my edited post?
No, 'cause I replied to yours before you edited your post.

And yeah, DPS do get the short end of the stick. No one gives an airborne coitus about us, since we're replaced so easily. But I'll be damned if I don't trash on the tanks when they deserve it. I thank them in the back of my mind for not giving me a deserter debuff when they kick me.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
6860


The reason for crying foul on this post are above in bold. The fact he that he states 28 and then mistyped 33 and 35 force my skepticism meter to tilt!

The funny thing is that this isnt far off my experience in game. Maybe the not so funny part.

Seems to me DPS gets the short end of the stick. Healers get blamed for things that clearly arent their fault. Tanks, even if they completely suck, are often allowed to remain because honestly who wants to wait for another one to queue up while standing in dungeon?

Basically the treatment of any class is inversely related to the amount of time you will have wait in queue to find a replacement.

I coulda told ya that!



That is a mistake on my part - the 3 is right next to 2. I typed everything in my post in the little reply box on this website. It was hard to keep track of everything


I don't believe for a second that you ran 243 dungeons in certain personas and recorded the results.



It was actually a grand total of 543 runs and what everyone seems to be forgetting is that that isn't such a big number when 4 level 80s are concerned over the course of over 6 months. It honestly averages to less than 3 heroics a day.

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11 Tauren Paladin
20
Experiences posted here are close to my own, and are the reasons I don't tank anymore and why I won't run an instance or raid outside of my guild anymore.

WoW costs real $, I don't really like spending my money just so I can hang out with random idiots.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
6720
study is not internally valid
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85 Tauren Druid
1590
Once as a tank, in a run where no one said anything and nothing went wrong, I initiated a Vote Kick on my friend because it would be funny. The excuse given was "I'm just screwing around."

It went through. No questions asked.


Laugh Out Loud.
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85 Tauren Warrior
4500
This should be stickied. If only baddies would actually read it all. As a tank and DPS, I can agree and have certainly experienced/witnessed/performed it all, minus the abuse, unless it was really warranted (Pally healer healing himself instead of the tank.)

I respecced my Shammy for heals and tried my first dungeon as healing at 71. This is exactly what I had. I had my talents set, but with the patch they were reset, and I didn't realize until I got in there and noticed half my hotkeys were missing. I told the group to wait but the tank just raged and continued, then died. lol. Once I was good to go, I ressed him and we zerged the entire dungeon with only one death where I was sheeped. At the end after the tank left, one of the DPS said "man what a crying baddie".
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85 Night Elf Druid
3625
Great post, but I have one quick note:

You say that the DPS are treated like dirt, when, in fact, the only time the DPS were treated like dirt (kicked a majority of the time) was when you interfered with the tank by pulling.

In a way, that's just another way of saying the tank is king - not saying the DPS are dirt.

When you played as DPS and the only person you hurt was yourself, you slipped under the radar just fine most of the time.

The healer experiment was similar: you ran into the most trouble when you interfered with the tank. The DPS remained irrelevant; you could treat them well, or mistreat them, as you chose.

In all three cases, it was really all about the tank.
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Saddly this doesn't surprise me in one bit. I personally don't have many problems in the LFD groups at least for any of my characters. I've seen many things like that happen though. While on my rogue doing a random heroic there was a hunter, and they were trying their best and since they had just hit 80, their gear wasn't the best. Myself and the other DPS and healer in the group didn't care one bit. After we killed the first boss the tank linked what he thought was the damage meter ... turned out it was actions per minute. Though the hunter was low on the DPS chart he was at least keeping up with the other DPS and not trailing by much. Every one in the group said no but the tank kept prompting and eventually went afk, came back pulled every mob within range, waited till he got healed and saw at least one of the other dps join in and left the group making sure to leave a rather ....er 'nice' comment before he left.

I suppose there was one time, on my first heroic on this character I was told to go buy my gear and stop being a lazy arse. Kind of laughed at that one to be honest but what made me laugh was I was the 2nd in DPS over the others in the group that were geared in HLK type gear (item lvl 264). We finished the run extremely quick and in the end I was told I did a great job since they were thinking i was going to be cranking out extremely low DPS.
Edited by Leatree on 11/30/2010 5:37 AM PST
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85 Human Death Knight
2890
I've been playing as a tank for a while now and I do agree that we tend to be the center of the group. But thats just the nature of this type of game.

Of course, since I am the center of the group I have the power to make it a very positive run. I think your test results were flawed because you only had 1 of 9 scenarios where you were trying to be a constructive player. Then at the end, you say that only about 1 in 9 of the runs were positive experiences. Maybe thats because the rest of the time you were bringing down the group.

Thats not an insult, I know you did it on purpose for a valid reason. I am just saying that every group member, especially the tank, has the power to make a group friendly and fun.
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85 Blood Elf Priest
5935
Obviously the ethics of the situation are questionable. But at the end of the day this is probably the safest environment for this type of study. Since it's just a game and you weren't doing anything that typical people don't do on a daily basis ANYWAY. Pretty cool to see your results.

As a healer I frequently notice dps who will either pull before the tank, or rip aggro from the tank, then blame me or the tank when I let them die (everybody gets one, a la Spiderman. but I don't support bad habits). And I personally will always stick up for the tank unless he gives me a good reason not to--by being a jerk, generally. Having no gems or enchants on a tank with poor blue gear who does not open with a self-effacing statement will generally cause me to spontaneously leave a group, though (especially if his hp is below 30k). I am almost infinitely tolerant of tanks who start a run with mention that they know their gear is bad, though, and to please allow lead time. I would rather do a whole run with fun and conscientious players in atrocious gear than one of the silent deadly speedruns. I hate the feeling of playing in a vacuum. But then heroics have always been more than a means to an end, for me. ymmv.

However, I think some of these things will change in Cata. Groups will require greater coordination between members, and the silent, deadly efficient aoe runs will go by the wayside. CC will be relevant again. Raid marks will be used (I actually get verbally abused on occasion for throwing raid marks on things, with the underlying implication being that anyone who relies on raid marks is intellectually inferior).

I look forward to that.
Edited by Rachey on 11/30/2010 5:39 AM PST
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85 Troll Hunter
5185
You say that the DPS are treated like dirt, when, in fact, the only time the DPS were treated like dirt (kicked a majority of the time) was when you interfered with the tank by pulling.
That's not always the case, but I guess it varies by one's experience. That is your experience. My experience (and I guess fate is dealing me the short end of the stick) is that the tank flies off the handle about stuff that is really minimal.

One time comes to mind that I was on my shaman, the tank lost aggro and a low-geared mage got two-shotted. He yelled at me when I rezzed him because he was "expendable, don't rez the [bad word]ing DPS, you [bad word]ing fail healer."

Most tanks I get have similar superiority complexes. :(
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90 Pandaren Shaman
6860
Hey I agree completely - I honestly had no real purpose for any of this. It's a personal thing. I log ALOT of things down in my life just for reference and a bit of fun. Things such as how much boss greets me each day, or on what days of the week I begin to feel sick.

The only thing I can see it being useful for is the amount of patience a group has for a specific role.

And to many of the posters above who are calling false/irrelevant/inaccurate reflections of the actual game - guess what...I don't disagree. Like I said in my original post, this is not accurate. I just thought it would be fun to share.
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90 Undead Priest
16535


The reason for crying foul on this post are above in bold. The fact he that he states 28 and then mistyped 33 and 35 force my skepticism meter to tilt!

The funny thing is that this isnt far off my experience in game. Maybe the not so funny part.

Seems to me DPS gets the short end of the stick. Healers get blamed for things that clearly arent their fault. Tanks, even if they completely suck, are often allowed to remain because honestly who wants to wait for another one to queue up while standing in dungeon?

Basically the treatment of any class is inversely related to the amount of time you will have wait in queue to find a replacement.

I coulda told ya that!



That is a mistake on my part - the 3 is right next to 2. I typed everything in my post in the little reply box on this website. It was hard to keep track of everything


I don't believe for a second that you ran 243 dungeons in certain personas and recorded the results.



It was actually a grand total of 543 runs and what everyone seems to be forgetting is that that isn't such a big number when 4 level 80s are concerned over the course of over 6 months. It honestly averages to less than 3 heroics a day.

If this is true then at least edit your post to reflect the correct data.

Regardless, as far as I'm concerned this post is nothing more than a troll and all your data is just made up.
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90 Troll Shaman
2770
This is a great study, and honestly, whether or not it's entirely made-up is irrelevant. We've all done enough randoms to know that these numbers are more than believable.

I think an interesting and more important study would now be to go and run a bunch of heroics acting particularly NICE - do everything great and responsibly. TALK to the group, try to get chatter going. Try to make friends. Then compare how much more successful the groups are, how much more everyone seemed to enjoy them, and how many fewer deaths you had. I'm willing to bet the difference would be astounding (although I'm sure not enough people would take note for it to matter in the end, it'd still be a good lesson).

I for one can't stand arrogant tanks. I've been MMOing since 1999 EQ1, and while yes, tanks are important, the thing that really gets to me is tanks that are super arrogant and ALSO suck. Look, if you're going to be an elitist jerk but you're an awesome tank, that's fine. I can deal with that. It's the ones who think they are great but are terrible that get to me.

The other day, as this character (Resto Shaman, healer), I got into a Hellfire Ramparts group. The tank took off immediately (taking no notice of the fact that I was at 13% mana and drinking because I had just switched specs), pulled the groups on BOTH sides of the bridge AND the group on the far side, then grouped them all up as if for AoE. Needless to say, we wiped about 30 seconds inside the door. I immediately left the group. Tanks like that are NOT going to be very successful in Cata.

The other bad-tank phenomenon I encounter way too much is when tanks just don't pay attention to who the mobs are attacking. Way too often as the healer, I've been in groups where the tank loses threat when I heal him and one or more mobs peel off to attack me (usually standing some distance away, often behind the tank). I start getting beat on and going "ON ME" in the chat box, while the tank finishes killing the one mob he has left... and then runs on to pull the next group without ever looking behind him to notice there are still two mobs beating the crap out of his healer! I thought keeping your group alive and being aware of what the mobs were doing was Tanking 101.

My favorite story regarding this was in one random group I was in a while back. It was a good group and we had been together through several dungeons, so the kick-out timer had long expired. Eventually our tank had to leave, and we queued up for a replacement. Guy pops in, and immediately goes "Here are my rules: I'm the tank, I say where we go and what we skip or don't skip. If YOU pull aggro off of me, you die - watch your DPS or pay for it. Keep up with me or I leave you behind." I initiated a vote-kick immediately and less than 15 seconds after zoning in he got kicked out. :) Hope that taught him a lesson about being polite... (Probably not, though).
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