A study: Stereotypes in the LFD

85 Human Death Knight
9280
As far as a tank caring if the dps pulls off of you, as a tank myself (three of my 80s are tanks) I seriously do not understand why people get so angry when dps pulls off them. One of 2 things happen, they die and you get to laugh at them, or they kill the mob by the time it gets to them. Either way you win. And since I have grown accustomed to tanking I have noticed that tanks get treated like royalty, and I can not say I have not taken part in the "WTS instant queue for heroics, 30g per" etc etc. However since tanks are rare, and we know the position is rare, people will continue to say nothing about tanks being asshats. However I think allot of this will change come cata, when heroics will not be so easily face-rolled. The problem is not inherently the tanks being @#*@!**s, its the ridiculously easy content that no one needs to pay attention to to clear it. Once cata comes out, and EVERYONE needs to do their part to stay alive/survive, there will be a MUCH different tune being sung out there.
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85 Troll Hunter
5185
My favorite story regarding this was in one random group I was in a while back. It was a good group and we had been together through several dungeons, so the kick-out timer had long expired. Eventually our tank had to leave, and we queued up for a replacement. Guy pops in, and immediately goes "Here are my rules: I'm the tank, I say where we go and what we skip or don't skip. If YOU pull aggro off of me, you die - watch your DPS or pay for it. Keep up with me or I leave you behind." I initiated a vote-kick immediately and less than 15 seconds after zoning in he got kicked out. :) Hope that taught him a lesson about being polite... (Probably not, though).
That reminds me of this bear that I got for HHOR who had this ostentatious macro about how he was boss and to kill in a specific order, DO NOT AOE, and then proceded to tank in the hallway. He got mad at me for volleying the crap out of everything, which was resulting in the death of everything very fast. (Yay 3.3.3 MM!) He raged pretty hard tried to kick me with three other members of my guild in the group. There were a lot of lulz in vent that night, along with a running gag.

He could have said "kill the mercs first, they stun, I have no mitigation." Then I would have been nice. :/
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100 Troll Shaman
3645
My favorite story regarding this was in one random group I was in a while back. It was a good group and we had been together through several dungeons, so the kick-out timer had long expired. Eventually our tank had to leave, and we queued up for a replacement. Guy pops in, and immediately goes "Here are my rules: I'm the tank, I say where we go and what we skip or don't skip. If YOU pull aggro off of me, you die - watch your DPS or pay for it. Keep up with me or I leave you behind." I initiated a vote-kick immediately and less than 15 seconds after zoning in he got kicked out. :) Hope that taught him a lesson about being polite... (Probably not, though).
That reminds me of this bear that I got for HHOR who had this ostentatious macro about how he was boss and to kill in a specific order, DO NOT AOE, and then proceded to tank in the hallway. He got mad at me for volleying the crap out of everything, which was resulting in the death of everything very fast. (Yay 3.3.3 MM!) He raged pretty hard tried to kick me with three other members of my guild in the group. There were a lot of lulz in vent that night, along with a running gag.

He could have said "kill the mercs first, they stun, I have no mitigation." Then I would have been nice. :/


Yeah, the EXACT same messages can be communicated in a much more polite manner often with a world of difference. "Hey, do me a favor and let me lead - I know this dungeon and I'm pretty good at it. Watch your threat please, and have fun." goes a lot farther than "I'M THE BOSS DO WHAT I SAY OR ELSE RRRGRGRGRGR". On the other hand, some DPS are asshats too, as I have seen a tank VERY politely ask a DPS to watch his threat and have the DPS go "DON'T TELL ME HOW TO PLAY JERK" and then pull a huge group and wipe us.

Seriously, who remembers the days when MMOs were a COMMUNITY and 99% of people were actually nice to each other? That was back when you had serious death penalties so people wanted to do everything in their power to AVOID dying, which resulted in much more politeness. Say what you want about XP loss as a death penalty.. it makes people behave!
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85 Human Paladin
3100
A very interesting post. If you truly committed to all of those runs, I commend you.

Sadly, the data isn't all that surprising. It is pretty much what I see a large majority of the time in the LFD. I primarily tank to farm JPs, but I also fill DPS and healer roles on my shaman.

I try to take time to help those who need the help and am patient with those who aren't in full t10, but it truly is amazing and sad to see how the other members of the groups treat those same people.
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85 Troll Hunter
5185
That reminds me of this bear that I got for HHOR who had this ostentatious macro about how he was boss and to kill in a specific order, DO NOT AOE, and then proceded to tank in the hallway. He got mad at me for volleying the crap out of everything, which was resulting in the death of everything very fast. (Yay 3.3.3 MM!) He raged pretty hard tried to kick me with three other members of my guild in the group. There were a lot of lulz in vent that night, along with a running gag.

He could have said "kill the mercs first, they stun, I have no mitigation." Then I would have been nice. :/


Yeah, the EXACT same messages can be communicated in a much more polite manner often with a world of difference. "Hey, do me a favor and let me lead - I know this dungeon and I'm pretty good at it. Watch your threat please, and have fun." goes a lot farther than "I'M THE BOSS DO WHAT I SAY OR ELSE RRRGRGRGRGR". On the other hand, some DPS are asshats too, as I have seen a tank VERY politely ask a DPS to watch his threat and have the DPS go "DON'T TELL ME HOW TO PLAY JERK" and then pull a huge group and wipe us.

Seriously, who remembers the days when MMOs were a COMMUNITY and 99% of people were actually nice to each other? That was back when you had serious death penalties so people wanted to do everything in their power to AVOID dying, which resulted in much more politeness. Say what you want about XP loss as a death penalty.. it makes people behave!
Yeah, the only reason why I decided to volley is because he was such an asshat. I'm usually pretty chill, but when the tank starts it, I bring it right back. I said before that there was a warrior who refused to charge the shadowcasters in AN, and pulled the whole little area under the right stairs. We wiped, I, as a rogue, made a friendly suggestion to get the casters first, they hurt. He raged. I quit. I could be doing quests in the time that he's waving his ego about. I hate how common decency is dead as soon as someone becomes anonymous.

Yeah, like Guild Wars. Dying in that game is a big deal. It sucks. It's best to have a few people who know what they're doing, and if not, are willing to learn.

I love it when I find someone who's doing poorly, but willing to learn. I was running an Underbog a while back on my shaman, and the paladin tank was having mana problems. Me and the warlock gave him pointers, like sanc and seal of wisdom. He was so grateful to us.

Earlier I was in Deadmines, and our holy paly had righteous fury up. It was obvious that this dude was new to the game, and didn't know how to take off the buff. I was trying to tell him nicely how to, but the hunter was raging at the dude, full caps, bad spelling, the whole deal. Thankfully the server came down before we could get any farther. I would have kicked him for being a %###.

Edit: I do sort of have a beef with exp loss as a death penalty. When I'm at -15% and the mobs give >.25% exp, even above my level, it isn't worth it anymore.
Edited by Villantô on 11/30/2010 6:12 AM PST
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85 Human Paladin
2360
very informative, but also true. i find when my friend and i play healer/tank to fool around with people, if i am the healer and my partner is the tank and they say something like kick the healer i just tell them the tank will leave, or he will say that and vice versa, often resulting in them shutting up quickly. its very amusing lol.

i appreciate the effort you put into this it obviously took some time and patience, we could learn a thing or two from this, perhaps some of us need to learn to work together more or just be less aggressive.

also remember while DPS are more common they are still as necessary to do a dungeon, a healer and a tank can only do so much with things like enrages and OOM'ing.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
9235
This is a great study, and honestly, whether or not it's entirely made-up is irrelevant. We've all done enough randoms to know that these numbers are more than believable.

I think an interesting and more important study would now be to go and run a bunch of heroics acting particularly NICE - do everything great and responsibly. TALK to the group, try to get chatter going. Try to make friends. Then compare how much more successful the groups are, how much more everyone seemed to enjoy them, and how many fewer deaths you had. I'm willing to bet the difference would be astounding (although I'm sure not enough people would take note for it to matter in the end, it'd still be a good lesson).

I for one can't stand arrogant tanks. I've been MMOing since 1999 EQ1, and while yes, tanks are important, the thing that really gets to me is tanks that are super arrogant and ALSO suck. Look, if you're going to be an elitist jerk but you're an awesome tank, that's fine. I can deal with that. It's the ones who think they are great but are terrible that get to me.

The other day, as this character (Resto Shaman, healer), I got into a Hellfire Ramparts group. The tank took off immediately (taking no notice of the fact that I was at 13% mana and drinking because I had just switched specs), pulled the groups on BOTH sides of the bridge AND the group on the far side, then grouped them all up as if for AoE. Needless to say, we wiped about 30 seconds inside the door. I immediately left the group. Tanks like that are NOT going to be very successful in Cata.

The other bad-tank phenomenon I encounter way too much is when tanks just don't pay attention to who the mobs are attacking. Way too often as the healer, I've been in groups where the tank loses threat when I heal him and one or more mobs peel off to attack me (usually standing some distance away, often behind the tank). I start getting beat on and going "ON ME" in the chat box, while the tank finishes killing the one mob he has left... and then runs on to pull the next group without ever looking behind him to notice there are still two mobs beating the crap out of his healer! I thought keeping your group alive and being aware of what the mobs were doing was Tanking 101.

My favorite story regarding this was in one random group I was in a while back. It was a good group and we had been together through several dungeons, so the kick-out timer had long expired. Eventually our tank had to leave, and we queued up for a replacement. Guy pops in, and immediately goes "Here are my rules: I'm the tank, I say where we go and what we skip or don't skip. If YOU pull aggro off of me, you die - watch your DPS or pay for it. Keep up with me or I leave you behind." I initiated a vote-kick immediately and less than 15 seconds after zoning in he got kicked out. :) Hope that taught him a lesson about being polite... (Probably not, though).


I do try to talk in randoms and have actually been ridiculed for the effort. And I quote " Healers talk to much in instances" Generally these comments near the end boss and not before.

I was in the development through open beta phases of EQ. Only Qeynos and Freeport to choose from as starting cities. I played that game until the minute I had to pay for it. Back in the day the system they had in place was like paying for abuse and the time sink was just not warranted or justified. I went away from mmo's until SWG and then Wow. Anyway when redeye/verant/989, whatever name it was back then, asked for money, I started playing hardcore quake CTF. Just felt like mentioning this as it has no real bearing on my reply. :)

I have had similar experiences with tanks acting like gods and rather than kick them I ridicule them slightly, pushing their buttons. Healer pull and then show him I can heal through it, with or without him. Kicking is nice, but hanging around and doing the opposite of everything he just stated thus proving to him that he is not in charge, is WAY more fun. I also find that most tanks that act this way when starting a dungeon, suck pretty bad thus the need for the speech. Basically what they are saying is:

1) I cant tank so let me try to get better

2) My last group went poorly because of my lack of skills, though I prefer to blame others and so will preemptively blame everyone and put you on NOTICE. Makes it easier to blame someone else later in the run as well.

3) I cannot handle being blamed for being bad.

4) I chose the tank class because I knew I could then be more like I am in real life, a JERK.

I actually had a tank say at the end of the run the other day and I quote: " You're welcome for the excellent tanking job everyone "

My reply?

" And you are welcome for the excellent healing which is more responsible for the outcome of this dungeon than your tanking "

I didnt hang around for responses but my buddy that was in the dungeon with me commented that the tank had been less than impressive.

I just find this kinda thing funny. "IT WAS ALL ME" kinda thinking seems more evident in the tanking community than any other.

I generally do compliment excellent DPS'ers as they make my job so much more fun.
Edited by Machistmo on 11/30/2010 6:29 AM PST
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100 Troll Shaman
3645
Yeah, the only reason why I decided to volley is because he was such an asshat. I'm usually pretty chill, but when the tank starts it, I bring it right back. I said before that there was a warrior who refused to charge the shadowcasters in AN, and pulled the whole little area under the right stairs. We wiped, I, as a rogue, made a friendly suggestion to get the casters first, they hurt. He raged. I quit. I could be doing quests in the time that he's waving his ego about. I hate how common decency is dead as soon as someone becomes anonymous.

Yeah, like Guild Wars. Dying in that game is a big deal. It sucks. It's best to have a few people who know what they're doing, and if not, are willing to learn.

I love it when I find someone who's doing poorly, but willing to learn. I was running an Underbog a while back on my shaman, and the paladin tank was having mana problems. Me and the warlock gave him pointers, like sanc and seal of wisdom. He was so grateful to us.

Earlier I was in Deadmines, and our holy paly had righteous fury up. It was obvious that this dude was new to the game, and didn't know how to take off the buff. I was trying to tell him nicely how to, but the hunter was raging at the dude, full caps, bad spelling, the whole deal. Thankfully the server came down before we could get any farther. I would have kicked him for being a %###.

Edit: I do sort of have a beef with exp loss as a death penalty. When I'm at -15% and the mobs give >.25% exp, even above my level, it isn't worth it anymore.


Just to be clear, I don't actually SUPPORT XP loss as a death penalty - I hated that crap, nothing feels worse than LOSING a level when you screw up. However, one good thing about it was the way it made people behave. In EQ1, for example, you were polite. You worked together. You went out of your way to communicate, to plan, and to be nice to your groupmates, because if one of you screwed up - chances are you'd all be out an hour or two of your hard-earned experience.

When dying no longer matters, people don't care about being petty. It's a hard thing to justify because I don't like being punished for dying any more than the other random joes out there, but I bet if a bad pull resulted in you taking a serious hit to your character, you'd get a loooot more careful tanks. :) (And other classes, too)
Edited by Jhag on 11/30/2010 6:23 AM PST
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100 Tauren Druid
12420
I find it very curious you got kicked out for being a DPS "in the fire" more often than you got kicked out for being an auto-attack waste of space.

I play all three roles frequently, and as all three roles I will initiate votekicks only on players that do sub-1000 dps. Not because they're doing so little, but because they're in ICC epics and I know they can bust out more than that if they'd only do something other than auto-attack.

I loved reading the post, by the way. Results were mostly what I expected---Tanks are drama queens, healers are underdogs, and most DPS are trash you're forced to bring with you. Sadly that's the outlook in most of the heroics I run (and even some raids..)
Edited by Soraseta on 11/30/2010 6:24 AM PST
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85 Draenei Hunter
6285
LOVE this post. Well done.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
9915
Should have rolled as a dps that links meters after every fight or asks for meters after every fight. I see that often and it always angers someone in the group enough to cause some comments to go back and forth until there's a votekick
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80 Draenei Mage
3330
I think an interesting and more important study would now be to go and run a bunch of heroics acting particularly NICE - do everything great and responsibly. TALK to the group, try to get chatter going. Try to make friends. Then compare how much more successful the groups are, how much more everyone seemed to enjoy them, and how many fewer deaths you had. I'm willing to bet the difference would be astounding (although I'm sure not enough people would take note for it to matter in the end, it'd still be a good lesson).


From my experience, heroic runs have a 95-99% success rate. As such, the metric for "successful" has become how fast the run is made. Stopping to chat would slow down the run, and probably just aggravate everybody else.

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85 Troll Hunter
5185
Just to be clear, I don't actually SUPPORT XP loss as a death penalty - I hated that crap, nothing feels worse than LOSING a level when you screw up. However, one good thing about it was the way it made people behave. In EQ1, for example, you were polite. You worked together. You went out of your way to communicate, to plan, and to be nice to your groupmates, because if one of you screwed up - chances are you'd all be out an hour or two of your hard-earned experience.

When dying no longer matters, people don't care about being petty. It's a hard thing to justify because I don't like being punished for dying any more than the other random joes out there, but I bet if a bad pull resulted in you taking a serious hit to your character, you'd get a loooot more careful tanks. :) (And other classes, too)
Lol. It would be interesting if WoW implemented that. Imagine the rage people would feel. Epic troll move.

It's going to be interesting in Cataclysm. In the beta, there was rarely a regular group that didn't wipe at least three times a run. Not because people were bad, but because #@%@ would just hit the fan, like a trap got resisted or someone jumped the gun, or the tank/healer got CC'd. But people didn't get angry. That's just how it was supposed to play. Sure, the tank lost aggro, the healer ran oom, the DPS accidently pulled an add. The instances are going to be a lot more challenging. I'm curious how all the speedrun tanks and lazy healers and berserker DPS are going to react. I expect a lot of QQing from the elitist baddie sector in the first few months.

To me, it'll be nice to have something to do rather than playing whack-a-mole with my cd counts and spamming steady shot.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
9235
I think an interesting and more important study would now be to go and run a bunch of heroics acting particularly NICE - do everything great and responsibly. TALK to the group, try to get chatter going. Try to make friends. Then compare how much more successful the groups are, how much more everyone seemed to enjoy them, and how many fewer deaths you had. I'm willing to bet the difference would be astounding (although I'm sure not enough people would take note for it to matter in the end, it'd still be a good lesson).


From my experience, heroic runs have a 95-99% success rate. As such, the metric for "successful" has become how fast the run is made. Stopping to chat would slow down the run, and probably just aggravate everybody else.


I dont have a preference on the run speed. If they wanna plow through it, GREAT! If not, that is ok too. I especially love it when people actually ASK what they are doing wrong. I absolutely DO NOT mind stopping to give someone a little advice if I can. I would prefer that people felt more comfortable doing so these days. Calling someone bad and kicking them for being lazy is one thing, but kicking someone without having at least tired to explain anything to them, that make who bad?
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
9235
As far as a tank caring if the dps pulls off of you, as a tank myself (three of my 80s are tanks) I seriously do not understand why people get so angry when dps pulls off them. One of 2 things happen, they die and you get to laugh at them, or they kill the mob by the time it gets to them. Either way you win. And since I have grown accustomed to tanking I have noticed that tanks get treated like royalty, and I can not say I have not taken part in the "WTS instant queue for heroics, 30g per" etc etc. However since tanks are rare, and we know the position is rare, people will continue to say nothing about tanks being asshats. However I think allot of this will change come cata, when heroics will not be so easily face-rolled. The problem is not inherently the tanks being @#*@!**s, its the ridiculously easy content that no one needs to pay attention to to clear it. Once cata comes out, and EVERYONE needs to do their part to stay alive/survive, there will be a MUCH different tune being sung out there.


I agree with this post 100% and GOD I hope you're right about the tunes being sung!
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