Ret Mastery

85 Blood Elf Paladin

ideally, SoB would just make CS 3 seconds baseline no haste involved, Inquisition would be made the Mastery, HoL made the 31 pointer and Zealotry changed/removed to our 81 ability.

credit to Zamm for posting most of this over the last weeks even though it goes unnoticed by our Overlords.

Yes please. All of this should have happened a long time ago. The beta build that had 3 sec cd on CS was the most fun. After that build, everything went downhill.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
There was a bug with HoL procs that caused you to be charged a holy power when the ability should have been free. Under this scenario a HoL proc during zealotry was effectively wasted, but that bug has been fixed. While I agree that Ret mastery is quite lackluster HoL procs are never going to be a dps loss.

The core issue with Ret mastery is that it is you don't gain an extra TV; you only gain the damage difference between the TV and whatever ability you were going hit if the HoL proc didn't happen. One possible way to improve mastery (without a major overhaul) would be to give an increased effect in addition to making the ability free. So TV/WoG would be increased by x% in addition to not costing holy power.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
Stop saying Zealotry becomes a DPS loss, it doesn't. I completely agree with everything else though. The only solution is to remove it as the mastery. It can't be made to scale properly without reducing our rotation to TV->TV->TV.

I do like the mechanic though. It would made a good talent. It just doesn't work well as a stat.

It doesn't?

How much of a dps gain would Zealotry be assuming 100% mastery? Using it in that situation would be a dps loss, obviously. Work backwards from there.

Obviously, those levels of mastery are unrealistic. But the example illustrates the fact that our mastery has an inverse relationship with our 31 point talent, in that the better mastery gets, the worse the talent gets. That's my core point.

It would be a 0% gain at that point, which is not a loss. Zealotry does not consume HP or a GCD. And that would only happen with 100% mastery and a swing timer under 1.5 seconds (both unlikely). There is no opportunity cost in using it. If you never use CS over the duration (extremely unlikely), you simply never benefited from it. You won't do less dps because you pressed your keybind for Zealotry.

I agree that more mastery makes Zealotry less effective, but I just don't like sensationalism. i feel that it detracts from the point you are trying to make.

To say there is no dps loss because you didn't use it is kinda...duh. My point is that you wouldn't use it because to do so would be a dps loss. Obviously, ignoring it doesn't do anything, but then you may as well not even have it, no?

I thought we were talking about Zealotry here. You seem to be talking about casting CS when TV is available. Zealotry will never be a dps loss, improperly prioritizing attacks will always be a dps loss, inside or outside of Zealotry. I don't know why you'd blame Zealotry for that.

This, since the change to make zealotry not cost any HoPo it has been mathematically impossible to lose DPS by using it. The problems both HoL and zealotry are that as you gain more haste you get more AoW procs and so are more likely to be replacing exo with a bonus TV, so it is the smallest possible DPS gain. And the more mastery you have then the more HoL procs and so fewer CS's under zealotry.

It is not a DPS loss ever, but more like dropping a penny. When you are in poor gear you find a dime when you look for the penny. When you are well geared you find a nickle instead. You have made a profit both times, just less of one when geared.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
stack haste and crit? sounds simple enough.

Works well in practice, although we have to give up our T11 4pc as the hands and legs have mastery on them (this is like arm pen on WotLK ret gear, only mastery is a far worse stat).

And there is the potential of comedy situation of rets wanting to roll on tank gear. Because they have changed how items with gem slots are itemized, basically taking away the primary stat of the class the piece is aimed at assuming it will be replaced by gemming for that stat, it means that tank plate can have more str on it that DPS plate.

Then consider just how bad mastery is for us, if you are below the hit or exp cap then a tank piece with hit or exp and a tank stat can give more DPS than a haste or crit DPS piece with mastery after you reforge the tank stat or mastery stat to something useful.
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80 Blood Elf Paladin
Retribution Mastery needs to be fixed and here is my thoughts.

Divine Purpose - Essentially, in my mind at least this talent isn't that good, spending more time smashing buttons to try and get 3 holy power with weak abilities just so we can use the 1 big hitter we have and then basically just spam Exorcism every time Art of War is up, is kind of boring and crappy to be honest. Judgment doesn't hit hard, even at 85, neither does Crusader Strike or Divine Storm, we have two strong abilities, one medium and 3 weak ones (two of which share a cool down). All abilities should create guaranteed holy power generations through the Divine Purpose talent and then mastery can be changed to something else so that we have no need for Hand of Light procs all the time. Then you can just go CS > Judgment > CS > Zealotry > Inquisition > CS > Templar's Verdict > CS > TV > CS > TV and use Avenging Wrath if desired for added damage.

Why even have Holy Power if every ability generates Holy Power at a 100% chance. The purpose of holy power was to prevent us from be front loaded and chaining so many attacks together. If every ability generated Holy Power things would look that different from where they do now.There is nothing wrong with DP being a percentage chance to gain extra Holy Power, it is essentially the same as primal fury for Ret. The problem Child is Zealotry not DP and not our Mastery. The only issue with our Mastery is that it doesn't scale worth a damn.

Our Mastery Should be changed to Righteous Vengeance.
Righteous Vengeance:
your physical damaging abilities(so Autos, CS, DS, and TV) will deal an additional 10% of the damage done as holy damage over 12sec. every point of mastery increase the amount by 2%.

Zealotry needs to go away, The only way Zealotry could work with DP and HoL is for it to be changed to a charge based instead of time based. This way you are always guaranteed a certain amount of TV's. With zero HoL and DP procs you are guaranteed about 5 TV's, given a 4 second CS. However that still doesn't illustrate its damage gain as you still need to subtract the Damage you would do with HW and Judge during this time frame. That is 2 judges and about 1 HW. Now those will probably add up to about 1/2 a TV. Now for every DP proc you get you have to subtract 1 TV, and for every HoL proc you have Delayed a CS and potentially pushed it outside that 20sec duration and negating a TV. finally you have Exorcism which if used during Zealotry would do the same as using an HoL proc. Now you can save that AoW proc for after Zealotry(depending on when it procs), however waiting results in possible wasted AoW procs, if they happen while AoW is already active.

What i would like to see is Zealotry gone, SoB gone, HoL switched to a talent and AoW changed. I would also like to see SoT changed. here are a few of my ideas.

AoW: Your Exorcism spell cast time is reduced by .7/1.5 and its damage is increased by 20/40/60% but now has a 15sec C/D. In addition your Auto attack have a 7/14/20% chance to refresh the Cooldown on your exorcism and cause it to cost now mana.

The base mana cost of exorcism is reduced by 75% to account for it not being free when AoW is UP.

CS C/D is a static 4.5 sec C/D. With Exo being guaranteed every 15sec along with HW and Judge i think we will be fine in a CS, x, Y, CS rotation without too much dead space.

SoT is now just a straight Weapon damage based seal no DoT. Censure replace with Holy strike. Prot will use SoR and Judgment Damage normalized.
Holy Strike:
3sec C/D
Strike the target dealing 30% weapon damage as Holy damage an inflicts the target with censure causing them to take x-y damage over 15sec and stacks up to 3 times. Holy strike generates 1 Holy Power and shares a C/D with CS.

IoF change to increase the periodic damage of Holy strike by 10/20/30%, increases the duration of censure by 1/2/3sec and the duration of Inquisition by 2/3/5sec for each Holy Power Consumed.

Divine storm goes back to being an AoE finisher. Seals of command change from causing your SoR to cleave to allowing your CS to hit 2 additional targets for 50% damage while SoR is active.

Divine Purpose changed to only effect TV, DS and IQ. HoL is merged with Divine Purpose and talent renamed HoL.

New Level 81 Ability:
Blazing Shield
1 Holy Power
requires Shield.
Focus the light into your shield and sending out a wave of light that dealing damage to all targets within 10yards of the paladin and Blinding them. Damage increased based on Holy power.

This is designed to be Prots AoE finisher. Inquisition is switched to having a base 30sec duration again and is now a level 76 ability.
New major glyph
Blinding Shield.
Your Blazing Shield ability now blinds all target within 10yds for 1.5sec per Holy Power consumed but now has 1min C/D.
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