Dungeon Quest Experience Reduction

85 Human Paladin
0
I never said you don't need to choose between dungeons or no dungeons. I offered you options that you could have taken to both do dungeons and quest and still not "over-level" as you call it. The options might not have always been ideal, but you can't always have the best of everything, sometimes when you want B, you have to give up a bit of A. The point I'm making is that the compromise was less for players in your position than what players in the opposite position now face with the loss of what they had.


The thing is, can't this be turned around and said about the people on the other side of this little...argument?

You called me selfish with little provocation. If people want to level faster, they can work towards and wear heirlooms. Before, I had the option of playing through and being within 3 levels of the leveling range at all times. With 4.0.3a, I lost that option for new content I wanted to experience at the appropriate level. This is giving me back that option and barely taking anything away from people who see leveling (...when they bought an MMO) as a grind and nothing more.

I'm perfectly fine with others having the option to level faster. The option for me to level at the appropriate level while being able to do dungeons was removed, and put back again now. Removing leveling entirely is a step too far in a game such as this to me, but I'll deal with that if it ever happens.

So yeah. You don't need to jump at me, dude. Just because I said you were complaining doesn't mean I was belittling what you were saying. :(


In fact, it does belittle what I say. Rather than offering a logical counter-argument and respecting my stance you simply shrug off what I said as being "complaining" and obviously not worth your attention.

The logical fallacy of your current stance is that your supposed "options" which allow people to level faster are a baseline in this situation. You can take them out or add them in in this situation and the result is the same. Yes, they're a way that such people can choose to level faster, but that's not what we're arguing over. I didn't say they had no options left, I said they had less options left. This was another option they had to separate themselves, with the opposing option to be to NOT wear heirlooms, to turn off XP if you get ahead and other such things to reduce your impact. And then, of course, the biggest option of all, to simply make multiple characters to spread them out amidst all the content (which is my personal plan).

Lastly. You act like I called you selfish AS a provocation, which is untrue. Whether or not you're provoked is up to you, but it was simply an accurate assessment given the situation. It would be difficult to objectively refute it, due to the inherent nature of what you're suggesting, limiting the options of others in favor of your own personal convenience. Which is really the crux of the issue here. No options were limited to you before this change, it was just not as ideal for you to have to make a choice, it was inconvenient. While that can be understandably frustrating, don't confuse it to an option lost.

Now, due to how arguments have panned out in this thread, I've had to be rather heavy on one side as opposed to the other, which I don't like. As I mentioned, I don't care so much about the change, and the only reason I seem so heavy on one side is because one side is clearly losing an option to give the other side a bit of convenience. However, I want to bring up a point of my own in favor of the side I've ended up arguing against for much of the time.
85 Human Paladin
0

The amount of complaining that has resulted from this change is absolutely ridiculous. People act like their left arm has been cut-off, like leveling has suddenly been made worse than it's ever been. The people who act like this change is a deal-breaker or suddenly a death to the leveling experience have disgustingly short memories.

1) Leveling in a dungeon is still quite viable and still faster than leveling was even four weeks ago, let alone a year or two ago.

2) The game is not about only what you want, it's about, ultimately, what Blizzard wants. Blizzard has shown in the past that they will listen to customers, but they have also shown that they also do what they want. Blizzard does their best to make all aspects of the game appealing, not just any one aspect of the game. If one aspect becomes more appealing than others, and becomes sort of the "obvious" choice, then they're often moved to change it so that people won't feel compelled to one path over the other.

Number 2 is, ultimately, what I feel is the case here, and why I'm so ambivalent about the change on the whole. The quest XP in dungeons was so high that NOT doing dungeons and their quests would have been a horrible choice for anyone who wanted to level. It became such a heavily obvious choice that Blizzard had to do something.

I will admit that I personally dislike HOW much they brought it down by. I think halving the amount would have been a bit more reasonable. But, in the end, the change is done, if Blizzard notices that questing becomes the way-too obvious choice then they might make another change. Leveling is MUCH better now than it has ever been. Enjoy it, level new characters, and try to be more reasonable in your suggestions. Whining and complaining just seems ungrateful and doesn't inspire Blizzard to work with us.
85 Orc Hunter
5690
Change is welcome, was unable to see new content + dungeons before.
4 Gnome Priest
0
A great change! Thank you Blizzard :)
85 Human Paladin
0
Let's not be disingenuous. You were perfectly capable of seeing the new content, you simply didn't exercise your options. This change offers convenience to those who wanted to level slower, it does not open up options that did not exist before.

On the flip side, leveling in dungeons is not going to be a "crawl" it has not suddenly become unviable. It's still insanely fast to level in the dungeon queue as opposed to what leveling used to be, and if you want to get from 15-80 in just dungeons it's still something you can do, provided you're paired up with a role (or are a role) that gets quick dungeon queues. If you're a DPS class you're always going to have a rough time getting queues and should probably be questing while queueing for maximum efficiency either way.
81 Orc Death Knight
4090
Um, wow, uh, geez. You're kind of defensive about this, aren't you? Talk about seeing what you want to see in a counterargument, I meant complain in the context of you complaining about lack of choice.

This wasn't a big deal. Judging by the first post, the amount it put you ahead of the leveling curve simply wasn't intended. Every first time you make it to a dungeon - just the first - you miss out on a level of experience. BUT doing this you don't outlevel content before you finish it. Why would the developers give you content that you would automatically outlevel if you did a dungeon? Why not just cut the last 20 quests from a zone so you didn't? This couldn't have been what they wanted, it doesn't make sense from a development standpoint.

The only thing this changes is it gives an option to not need to turn off XP at all if you want to do a dungeon and not get ahead of the leveling curve, and people doing LFD's lose a free level per dungeon they planned on doing, or most of one level. That's it. This sets no precedent, this doesn't remove your option to things to level faster, it doesn't make that choice more inconvenient to you. It makes it very slightly slower when it had been sped up and expands the options of others.

I agree a free XP turn-off would be nice, but there already exists options to level faster than everyone else, and there are fewer options to level slower. So, why make it essential to people who want to level normally and do dungeons at the same time, rather than people who find all of this new overhauling and work to make leveling less of a chore...a chore?
85 Undead Priest
5025
People keep bringing the option of not doing the instances, or not doing the quests, as a way to slow leveling. Well, that kind of defeats the point. It's not specifically the quests that people like so much. It's the content, which includes quests and instances both. They don't want to skip that content, and they also want to enjoy it when it's an appropriate level, and provides an appropriate amount of challenge. Suggesting that these people constantly visit the XP-disabling NPCs and pay 10g each time is disingenuous. You're suggesting that Blizzard's core target audience (people who actually are interested in more than a small fraction of the content they produce) should go to more effort to enjoy their playstyle than someone who simply is impatient and wants to skip to the end?

So, for those of you who like to level through instances, why don't you? This change doesn't really affect you. The dungeon quests aren't repeatable, so you only got that bonus XP once. Just keep running those instances. You don't have to touch a single quest once you can get into your first instance at level 12 or so. All this change means is that you'll have to run them more than once on your way to max level. But since you enjoy running instances so much, this shouldn't be a problem. I mean, that's all you're going to do once you hit max level anyway, isn't it? Run the same instances over and over?

I do agree that it would be nice if there were repeatable dungeon quests for the pre-endgame dungeons. That way, those who want to do everything once wouldn't feel rushed, but those who want to level quickly could repeat an activity that they enjoy an extra time or two to make up the difference.
85 Human Paladin
0
Um, wow, uh, geez. You're kind of defensive about this, aren't you? Talk about seeing what you want to see in a counterargument, I meant complain in the context of you complaining about lack of choice.

This wasn't a big deal. Judging by the first post, the amount it put you ahead of the leveling curve simply wasn't intended. Every first time you make it to a dungeon - just the first - you miss out on a level of experience. BUT doing this you don't outlevel content before you finish it. Why would the developers give you content that you would automatically outlevel if you did a dungeon? Why not just cut the last 20 quests from a zone so you didn't? This couldn't have been what they wanted, it doesn't make sense from a development standpoint.

The only thing this changes is it gives an option to not need to turn off XP at all if you want to do a dungeon and not get ahead of the leveling curve, and people doing LFD's lose a free level per dungeon they planned on doing, or most of one level. That's it. This sets no precedent, this doesn't remove your option to things to level faster, it doesn't make that choice more inconvenient to you. It makes it very slightly slower when it had been sped up and expands the options of others.

I agree a free XP turn-off would be nice, but there already exists options to level faster than everyone else, and there are fewer options to level slower. So, why make it essential to people who want to level normally and do dungeons at the same time, rather than people who find all of this new overhauling and work to make leveling less of a chore...a chore?


In fact, you're continuing to refuse to understand any viewpoint other than your own, which is unfortunate. I'm not certain how much longer I can continue to pound the same points home before I give up in the face of such relentless stubbornness. I've already shown far more caring than I feel simply due to the outrageous level of zealotry I've faced in making my appeal for better understanding on all sides.

1) This couldn't have been what they wanted, it doesn't make sense from a development standpoint
- Right and wrong. It would seem that this isn't what Blizzard wanted, they made that clear with the change. However, there's nothing wrong with how it was from a development standpoint. The point of a game like WoW isn't to make every player experience every form of content in the game. The game is absolutely HUGE, thus players have the option of picking and choosing what sort of content they want to see. Smart game design expands upon this potential, rather than forcing players into places they don't want to go.

This is why arguments like "this is an MMO, what did you expect?" are silly and so counter-productive, showing an obvious misunderstanding of how game development works. Yes, grinds are a part of any game. However, the choice of what grinds you want to do give a sense of empowerment to the player and makes them more apt to overlook the grind and feed into it, which is exactly what developers want. If you limit players options, it has the psychological effect of turning them away from paths they might want to take. Even if something remains viable, the effect of adding something, then cutting back on it will cause a harsh reaction, as this one did, which makes far less sense from a game-design stance. Unfortunately, developers can't always predict what will happen and cuts need to be made when they over commit.
85 Human Paladin
0

2) The only thing this changes is it gives an option to not need to turn off XP at all if you want to do a dungeon and not get ahead of the leveling curve, and people doing LFD's lose a free level per dungeon they planned on doing, or most of one level.
- This, more than any other statement you've made, shows your unwillingness to understand or look at anything beyond your own perspective. This is only true of what it changes for you, but not what it changes for everyone else. The change, for you, was a mere matter of convenience. You could do everything as it was, or you could turn off XP while doing dungeons and still get the full "experience" of seeing the game without over-leveling. Now you don't need to. It was a convenience thing, it didn't add any options for you.

However, it did take away options from other players. Let's be clear here: Yes, leveling is faster now than it has ever been. Still, this change will undeniably make leveling slower than what players were just beginning to get used to in dungeons. It is objectively slower than that in a relative sense, and that's what players are most vehemently objecting to. It doesn't bother me so much, because, on the whole, leveling is faster. But when you get down to the core of the argument that people who disagree with you are making it comes down to the fact that they lost an option. It's not merely an inconvenience. They can't make up the difference, no options were added to allow them the opportunity to still level at the pace that 4.0.3 originally offered them. That's gone now.

@ Javrius - Whether or not you think an option is what you would want to do does not refute the fact that the option exists. And, there are even other options you could take which minimize your effort. In fact, one of those options is the one that I'm choosing in order to maximize the content I see at the cheapest cost to me. The options exist, just because you don't want to see them and you want things to be more convenient for you shouldn't necessarily supersede the desire of other players.
81 Orc Death Knight
4090
In fact, you're continuing to refuse to understand any viewpoint other than your own, which is unfortunate. I'm not certain how much longer I can continue to pound the same points home before I give up in the face of such relentless stubbornness. I've already shown far more caring than I feel simply due to the outrageous level of zealotry I've faced in making my appeal for better understanding on all sides.


Right back at you, and your tone is unnecessary. I'm done.

As for Javrius, I agree wholeheartedly.
85 Human Paladin
0
Right back at me? I've shown consistent attempts to position both sides. How completely and utterly unfounded of you. However, I'm tired of being pigeon-holed to arguments I don't wholeheartedly agree with. I see myself being labeled as something, by people who refuse to open their attitudes, and I want to make my position clear.

My PERSONAL opinion is that I think the xp rewarded from dungeon quests should have been reduced by half or by 1/3 (note: not to 1/3, but by 1/3, so 2/3s of it remaining) and the cost for turning off XP should be dropped heavily, possibly to a tenth of the cost it was before.

The reason I like my opinion is that it does a couple of things without being overly limiting of players. First, it does reduce the XP from dungeon quests which was objectively a bit high, considering it was outpacing the XP rewarded from quests at markedly higher levels. It will help ensure that there's still some sort of grind to the level, which is needed so that the game doesn't become completed too quickly.

At the same time it maintains the quick leveling pace put out by Blizzard and only softens it a little while expanding options for other players who want to experience more content but don't want to pay hefty fees in order to do so. I think the high cost of turning off XP was due to the fact that it was mainly designed for twinks, who tend to have a lot of funds, and meant to be a more permanent solution instead of a toggleable feature.

However, with what Blizzard has managed to put out in 4.0.3 they've seen a decent portion of people who WANT to level slower, just to see their content. That should make them feel proud, they should pat themselves on the back, and, at the same time, consider also allowing people more options in order to do so by lessening the cost for the easiest, most convenient way to experience more for less.

Now, since I personally love the lore, the new quests, and dungeons, I've had to come up with my own solution for how I'm going to see all the content and not outpace it. Since I don't want to dump gold into turning off XP, my own solution is to make 2, possibly 3 characters that I will level up at various rates, spreading them out in the content, so that I can see as much of it as possible without outpacing the progression and allowing myself a full appreciation of all of the awesome and neat changes Blizzard has put out.
85 Undead Mage
4240
Well this is poo. I was enjoying leveling my first alt (Prot Pally) through dungeons. Having been raiding with and playing the same character for a few years, I was excited when I heard instance leveling was a quick and effective way of leveling. Sure the exp was really nice, but I getting awesome experience as a tank and learning very quickly how to deal with whatever happens. Questing is not a viable way to learn how to play a tank, and neither is running the same exact instance 20 times.

As another note here, some people (like myself) don't enjoy questing as much as we enjoy running dungeons. I don't think the exp reduction needed to be as severe as it apparently has, since this will deter a bunch of people from running dungeons versus power questing. I personally feel that working with a group of people to level SHOULD be more rewarding (exp wise) than solo questing.

85 Human Paladin
0
The experience in dungeons is still quite viable. Is it as nice as it was at the beginning of 4.0.3? No. Will people move on? Probably. In the end, it's still fast and efficient and a great way to level if you want, so I hope people stick with it, because it is certainly viable.
90 Undead Priest
10550
Easy solution, cut the exp rewarded by quests and dungeons. Bump the Exp gains using boas signifigantly, and or allow the players to pay for an exp boost like you can pay to cut the exp off. Sounds like the best solution to me. Win Win for both sides.
85 Human Paladin
0
Making an option to level faster by paying more only separates the "haves" and "have nots" a bit further. Reducing the cost to turn off XP significantly and keeping dungeon quest xp at an equal-to-slightly-higher level with at-level quests in normal zones still seems like the best solution to me. It allows players an easy way to slow down leveling on one character if they wish, while still allowing players who want to level quickly the option of doing so, without getting ridiculous xp amounts that rival quest xp in much higher zones.
90 Tauren Death Knight
4905
There are a myriad of ways to level so quickly that the content you just designed is utterly bypassed. Recruit A Friend, Instance quests, rested xp.

Why not eliminate these "XP Buffs" in their entirety if you want people to be forced to experience the hard work of the developers. -- OR -- set it up so that people who have already done the content can simply choose the level of the character at character generation?

PVE + PVP ... Speed levelling along with XP nerfs ... Raid sized instance loot along with "casual friendly" epic gear. Never before in my life have I seen a game with such schizophrenic development. I for one would like to see the developers make up their f-ing mind and have some sort of consistency in the direction of the game. I for one would be pleased to see some consistency.
85 Blood Elf Priest
3790
boooooooo, i don't like questing >.<
dungeons were an acceptable alternative
85 Human Paladin
0
While I agree that some of Blizzard's changes have seemed odd in the face of the general direction they're heading, I simply can't bring myself to think that your post is going to help things, Vix. Remember that the devs at Blizz are people to, prone to mistakes and, in general, inconsistencies. Voicing our concerns is one thing, but bashing Blizzard's decisions and implying general incompetence isn't going to inspire them to want to do more.

I have a feeling that one of the major reasons we don't see a "game suggestions" forum anymore is due to the fact that the WoW community is so poor and so critical that Blizzard doesn't want to put up with it anymore, which is sad. It's sad because reasonable concerns and suggestions are drowned out amongst the incessant bleating of those who feel the game has turned against them. It's just as frustrating, that's for sure. So no one is helping the situation by making demands of Blizzard or treating them like children.
I like this change, very much.
I hate instances for one thing, I've always felt like they were enormous distractions from the overall storyline and flow of Warcraft.

Also, I was getting tired of encountering people with 3/4 Dungeon Blues and 1/4 Level 15 white gear.

A welcome change, in my opinion! Now I can tell my boyfriend where to shove it! We're going to quest whether he likes it or not!
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