Aspect of the Fox and Trap Launcher in PvE

90 Tauren Hunter
9610
The implications of this ability are that every time you have to move any significant distance while regenerating focus, you're going to have to flip from hawk to fox, which is something I really do not look forward to.

Hunters as it is have a lot of other things to watch, especially as survival, and having to have separate binds for aspects that you have to hit nearly every time you want to move to get your spore debuff (to use an ICC example) seems to overcomplicate the hunter rotation.

My solution to this aspect twisting is to trash aspect of the fox completely and make steady/cobra usable while moving baseline, and we could receive a new 83 ability which could provide some sort of utility/survivability.

Trap Launcher right now is a clunky, unfun ability. Having to hit two binds and then click an area on the ground in the space of a GCD or 2 is incredibly frustrating. The fact that it can't be macroed with any traps further diminishes its value as an ability. The focus cost, while trivial with the glyph, certainly doesn't need to be there.

A solution I saw in another thread and really liked was that trap launcher, rather than being an activated ability, would be an aura of sorts that would make all your traps launchable automatically.
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80 Night Elf Druid
7965
The top Hunters will NEVER switch to Fox in PvE. Top Hunters will adjust their rotations so that they have enough Focus for multiple instants during movement. Couple that with Disengage and even the traveling the longest distance should not stop a fluid rotation. Tactics like this are going to be what separates great Hunters from average Hunters.

Trap Launcher is still a piece of garbage. Considering that Hunter traps are the only form of CC that has so many elements going against it, you would hope that TL would make the application of traps so much more efficient. I've always felt that TL should make the next trap fired able to be applied directly to a target. Even if it meant TL getting a 30s cooldown, the benefit gained from being a targetable trap would go a long ways to improving Hunters' CC reliability.
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/agreed
/Like, Thumbs UP

Well said and thought out. I have seen the suggestion before of trashing Fox and making SS/Cobra usable on the move base line. I completely agree that "aspect dancing" is not a fun mechanic. The removed stance dancing because of the same reasons, not sure why they brought it back for hunters.

Trap launcher is the most clunky ability I have seen from any class. It should not take 3 clicks to cast basically one ability. Also isnt it time that hunters got a targeted CC? Can we not make trap launcher the ability that casts our traps direclty on our targeted foe? This way we could still drop traps if we wanted, but could also have a targeted CC.
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80 Night Elf Druid
7965
Well they could just give AotF it's original design back and make autoshots available on the move. And make Steady / Cobra castable on the move, baseline. This would help low level PvP'ing Hunters.

After a fix like that, Blizzard would only have to worry about Hunters' survivability in PvP and then Hunters will be finally working.
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58 Human Death Knight
490
everyone who plays a hunter can see that aspect of the fox will not help. i would like lose aspect of the fox and get aspect of the bat (or any other named aspect) that allows hunters to regain health while in that aspect - that would be a base line ability available to all hunters....

steady shot should be an instant shot with a 1 second cd or cast able on the run with a 1 second cast or leave it a 2 second cast, but remove the minimum range for steady shot; it is not like steady shot does serious damage anyways. starting up a cast only to have the cast cancelled because the target gets to close is a fundamental flaw with the focus vs hunter design.

trap launcher needs to act more like a m-32 grenade launcher. select the ammunition (trap) for the launcher and the launcher will fire that ammunition (trap) until new ammunition (trap) is selected. selecting traps for the launcher shouldn't use a gcd. even if once loaded, the launcher had 4-6 charges and had to be reloaded that would be better than the current trap launcher.
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1 Blood Elf Paladin
0
The top Hunters will NEVER switch to Fox in PvE. Top Hunters will adjust their rotations so that they have enough Focus for multiple instants during movement. Couple that with Disengage and even the traveling the longest distance should not stop a fluid rotation. Tactics like this are going to be what separates great Hunters from average Hunters.


You're wrong. At least with the current balance of the specs (you'll be raiding as survival) and in the first tier of raids. Focus generation is at a level where you only have enough left over focus after using your main shots to use arcane shot once about every 20-30 seconds (outside of heroism and rapid fire), and it usually has to be used at a pretty particular time to prevent delaying an explosive shot or black arrow or capping out on focus.

Obviously if you have the choice of when to move within the next few seconds you'd wait until explosive shot is up, but you often have to move right away. Using an arcane shot while moving (unless it happens during the very narrow time frame of being needed) will almost always delay your next explosive shot and/or black arrow.

Unless they increase focus generation or change focus costs of abilities for survival to allow for more flexibility of using arcane shots when needed, top hunters will use aspect of the fox extremely frequently on movement heavy fights. Being able to quickly switch aspects constantly and pre-switch into fox when you'll need to move before your next cobra shot is done casting is what will separate average from great hunters.
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1 Blood Elf Paladin
0
...
Edited by Celinarral on 12/1/2010 12:52 PM PST
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1 Blood Elf Paladin
0
...wow...triple post...love the new forums
Edited by Celinarral on 12/1/2010 12:53 PM PST
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80 Night Elf Druid
7965
The top Hunters will NEVER switch to Fox in PvE. Top Hunters will adjust their rotations so that they have enough Focus for multiple instants during movement. Couple that with Disengage and even the traveling the longest distance should not stop a fluid rotation. Tactics like this are going to be what separates great Hunters from average Hunters.


You're wrong. At least with the current balance of the specs (you'll be raiding as survival) and in the first tier of raids. Focus generation is at a level where you only have enough left over focus after using your main shots to use arcane shot once about every 20-30 seconds (outside of heroism and rapid fire), and it usually has to be used at a pretty particular time to prevent delaying an explosive shot or black arrow or capping out on focus.

Obviously if you have the choice of when to move within the next few seconds you'd wait until explosive shot is up, but you often have to move right away. Using an arcane shot while moving (unless it happens during the very narrow time frame of being needed) will almost always delay your next explosive shot and/or black arrow.

Unless they increase focus generation or change focus costs of abilities for survival to allow for more flexibility of using arcane shots when needed, top hunters will use aspect of the fox extremely frequently on movement heavy fights. Being able to quickly switch aspects constantly and pre-switch into fox when you'll need to move before your next cobra shot is done casting is what will separate average from great hunters.


You're wrong. Top tiered Hunters (guys like Kripp) will never switch to Fox. I'm talking about the guys who currently never miss an auto shot. Majority of the raiding Hunters (and I assume you're included) have problems with movement fights. Disengage will get you were you need to be. There is no reason to switch to Fox. Every boss fight on Beta proves it.

The part of Hunter mechanics that should be worrying you is being chained into melee and not being able to unload your full DPS. Those horrible design mechanics are going to be horrible for your DPS. And those are the kind of mechanics that not even the top Hunters are going to be able to work around.
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85 Draenei Hunter
9415
Edited: Got on a pvp tangent by mistake. >.<
Edited by Karamok on 12/1/2010 1:15 PM PST
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1 Blood Elf Paladin
0

You're wrong. Top tiered Hunters (guys like Kripp) will never switch to Fox. I'm talking about the guys who currently never miss an auto shot. Majority of the raiding Hunters (and I assume you're included) have problems with movement fights. Disengage will get you were you need to be. There is no reason to switch to Fox. Every boss fight on Beta proves it.

The part of Hunter mechanics that should be worrying you is being chained into melee and not being able to unload your full DPS. Those horrible design mechanics are going to be horrible for your DPS. And those are the kind of mechanics that not even the top Hunters are going to be able to work around.


Has Kripp or some other well known hunter said they'll never use it? I'd be interested to see their reasoning if they did.

If you have to move for more then the 1 second gcd of an explosive shot or have to move while it's off cd, you can either cast arcane shot and shift your whole rotation back by delaying an explosive shot, or switch to fox and continue your rotation. I admittedly haven't done the math, but with explosive shot hitting as hard as it does compared to arcane at 85 it seems like a much better choice to give up 600 ap on one cobra shot while moving then delaying an explosive.
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80 Night Elf Druid
7965

You're wrong. Top tiered Hunters (guys like Kripp) will never switch to Fox. I'm talking about the guys who currently never miss an auto shot. Majority of the raiding Hunters (and I assume you're included) have problems with movement fights. Disengage will get you were you need to be. There is no reason to switch to Fox. Every boss fight on Beta proves it.

The part of Hunter mechanics that should be worrying you is being chained into melee and not being able to unload your full DPS. Those horrible design mechanics are going to be horrible for your DPS. And those are the kind of mechanics that not even the top Hunters are going to be able to work around.


Has Kripp or some other well known hunter said they'll never use it? I'd be interested to see their reasoning if they did.

If you have to move for more then the 1 second gcd of an explosive shot or have to move while it's off cd, you can either cast arcane shot and shift your whole rotation back by delaying an explosive shot, or switch to fox and continue your rotation. I admittedly haven't done the math, but with explosive shot hitting as hard as it does compared to arcane at 85 it seems like a much better choice to give up 600 ap on one cobra shot while moving then delaying an explosive.


If you have to move for roughly a second, you never miss a step. If you have to move for more than the time it takes to cast a Steady/Cobra, you use Disengage. This isn't a new trick. Pro Hunters have been doing this since the change to Disengage.
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85 Draenei Hunter
9415
If you have to move for roughly a second, you never miss a step. If you have to move for more than the time it takes to cast a Steady/Cobra, you use Disengage. This isn't a new trick. Pro Hunters have been doing this since the change to Disengage.


I think you have an extremely exaggerated view of disengage.
Edited by Karamok on 12/1/2010 2:08 PM PST
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1 Blood Elf Paladin
0
If you have to move for roughly a second, you never miss a step.


What if you have to move for roughly a second, and you used explosive shot 2 seconds ago and black arrow 3 seconds ago?

If you have to move for more than the time it takes to cast a Steady/Cobra, you use Disengage.


I would switch to aspect of the fox and disengage while casting my next cobra shot so I'm still attacking while disengaging.

And disengage isn't always available. For Chimaeron the raid starts out spread. When the robot protecting everyone is deactivated, you have a few (maybe 4) seconds for the raid to group up, probably in melee (ty blizz for the hitbox changes). He does damage split between everyone for 10ish seconds and then the raid needs to immediately spread back out. Either you use disengage to group up or you use it to spread out. It won't be up for both. For the other you would use aspect of the fox.
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90 Tauren Hunter
9610
The top Hunters will NEVER switch to Fox in PvE. Top Hunters will adjust their rotations so that they have enough Focus for multiple instants during movement. Couple that with Disengage and even the traveling the longest distance should not stop a fluid rotation. Tactics like this are going to be what separates great Hunters from average Hunters.

Trap Launcher is still a piece of garbage. Considering that Hunter traps are the only form of CC that has so many elements going against it, you would hope that TL would make the application of traps so much more efficient. I've always felt that TL should make the next trap fired able to be applied directly to a target. Even if it meant TL getting a 30s cooldown, the benefit gained from being a targetable trap would go a long ways to improving Hunters' CC reliability.



You can't make it from one end of the LK platform during p3 to the other casting instants the whole time, even with a full focus bar to start with and disengage. This holds true for halion's beams, too. I realize these are now obsolete examples, but it shows that blizzard is willing to make fights that have long stretches of moving.

Similarly, not ALL movement is predictable, i.e. the malleable goo areas on H fester appear somewhat randomly, so if you want to get out of one, but you're out of focus, you have to hit a few binds to switch to fox then cast your steady/cobra shot. It's primarily these unpredictable moments I'm concerned with.

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80 Night Elf Druid
7965
The top Hunters will NEVER switch to Fox in PvE. Top Hunters will adjust their rotations so that they have enough Focus for multiple instants during movement. Couple that with Disengage and even the traveling the longest distance should not stop a fluid rotation. Tactics like this are going to be what separates great Hunters from average Hunters.

Trap Launcher is still a piece of garbage. Considering that Hunter traps are the only form of CC that has so many elements going against it, you would hope that TL would make the application of traps so much more efficient. I've always felt that TL should make the next trap fired able to be applied directly to a target. Even if it meant TL getting a 30s cooldown, the benefit gained from being a targetable trap would go a long ways to improving Hunters' CC reliability.



You can't make it from one end of the LK platform during p3 to the other casting instants the whole time, even with a full focus bar to start with and disengage. This holds true for halion's beams, too. I realize these are now obsolete examples, but it shows that blizzard is willing to make fights that have long stretches of moving.


I can't believe so many Hunter have such problems with movement. Are you Hunters even jump-Disengaging? This covers a lot more distance than just Disengaging. If you have a near full Focus bar right before switching sides in P3 of LK, you can easily make it to the other side without using a Steady Shot. You won't even miss an Auto Shot if you stutter-step the last couple yards after the Disengage. And during Halion's cutter, you simply Disengage through the cutter. No good Hunter would ever dance around the cutter.

Sounds like we have a lot of Hunters who need to work on their movement techniques rather than asking for buffs to make up for a lack of skill. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for Hunter buffs, but you guys are asking for it in the wrong places.
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85 Draenei Hunter
9415

I can't believe so many Hunter have such problems with movement. Are you Hunters even jump-Disengaging? This covers a lot more distance than just Disengaging. If you have a near full Focus bar right before switching sides in P3 of LK, you can easily make it to the other side without using a Steady Shot. You won't even miss an Auto Shot if you stutter-step the last couple yards after the Disengage. And during Halion's cutter, you simply Disengage through the cutter. No good Hunter would ever dance around the cutter.

Sounds like we have a lot of Hunters who need to work on their movement techniques rather than asking for buffs to make up for a lack of skill. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for Hunter buffs, but you guys are asking for it in the wrong places.


Ok, you need to start posting on your hunter. I'm tired of hearing your L2P garbage. I have very little faith in your ability to play at hunter based on my sincere lack of respect for the suggestions you are making in your posts. You're applying some completely invented generality, that many hunters can't deal with movement fights, like it's some universally accepted opinion, and making silly claims that make it sound like you can use disengage on everything and you'll never be having to switch to Fox.

If my memory serves me correctly you cannot disengage THROUGH the cutter without taking damage, but I could be wrong. Regardless, you should save your disengage in case you need to move away with the debuff. Disengage is not the lazy man's rocket jump.

The point is this: You're never going to win anybodies support by making inflammatory remarks and accusing other players of being bad. There are very definitely times when disengaging is the way to go. Rotgut heroic, if the slime is about to flow on your side you should be positioned in a way that disengage will do all you need to escape. Other times however, you simply cannot avoid an interruption. If you've ever kited Blistering Zombies, or Deformed Fanatics things can happen that force you to travel against your plans.

If you had made the argument that it will be in every hunter's best interest to avoid switching to Aspect of the Fox, and even taken it further and said that the best hunters in the game will be the ones who manage to spend the least amount of time in Fox, EVERYone one would have agreed with you. Instead you just come off like a troll trying to tell everyone to learn to play.
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80 Night Elf Druid
7965


If my memory serves me correctly you cannot disengage THROUGH the cutter without taking damage, but I could be wrong. Regardless, you should save your disengage in case you need to move away with the debuff. Disengage is not the lazy man's rocket jump.

You CAN Disengage through the cutters. And you DON'T want to use Disengage when you have the debuff. Your travel time in the air is NOT measured by the game so anytime you're standing in fire or anything where you want the game to track your location, you do NOT want to use Disengage. I'm sorry if I'm coming off as a leetest but I just thought this was common knowledge.

If you had made the argument that it will be in every hunter's best interest to avoid switching to Aspect of the Fox, and even taken it further and said that the best hunters in the game will be the ones who manage to spend the least amount of time in Fox, EVERYone one would have agreed with you. Instead you just come off like a troll trying to tell everyone to learn to play.


And if you read my initial statement of how the top hunters will never go into Fox, you could see that if you weren't a top player, you'd spend a little time in Fox and if you were a terrible player, you probably want to spend the entire fight in Fox. Hunters' DPS is going to be higher the less time you spend in Fox. The Hunters that are going to be posting world record DPS parses are NEVER going to be in Fox.
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90 Troll Hunter
16610
I made a post about Trap Launcher but it has yet to appear, so either the forums just suck or it takes a few minutes. Probably the first one.
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85 Dwarf Mage
2215

You CAN Disengage through the cutters. And you DON'T want to use Disengage when you have the debuff. Your travel time in the air is NOT measured by the game so anytime you're standing in fire or anything where you want the game to track your location, you do NOT want to use Disengage. I'm sorry if I'm coming off as a leetest but I just thought this was common knowledge.


Your not sorry you are a elites, and a troll with only secondhand knowledge.

Not saying your wrong just that your not being constructive.

And if you read my initial statement of how the top hunters will never go into Fox, you could see that if you weren't a top player, you'd spend a little time in Fox and if you were a terrible player, you probably want to spend the entire fight in Fox. Hunters' DPS is going to be higher the less time you spend in Fox. The Hunters that are going to be posting world record DPS parses are NEVER going to be in Fox.


The fact that you dont think its ridiculous the level of complexity the planing and the sometimes precognitive ability you'll be required to have to pull off what your casually spouting off as "your just bad" because its something hunters are not interested in doing.

Stop being an arm-chair hunter because what hunter can do an paper and the actually reality has always been two vastly different things.

Also having fox delegated to pvp only is not something to be happy about considering the pathetic state of hunter pvp.
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