Mage armor. An Education

85 Human Paladin
7855
I still want to know if its so Op against dot classes, Why are warlocks always better then mages. S5 - S8 Warlock rep >Mage rep. why were shadow priest teams fine against mages. Why was it in S7 and S8 the only offensive caster with lower rep then mages was poor old boomkins?

could it be that when you take all the tools available and put em in context that mages needed MA to compete with other casters.

Warlocks. take less damage then mages, Heal in combat. have more stam. Offensive dispel.
Shadow priest. Offensive and defensive dispel. Able to heal teammates. take 15% less damage.
ele shaman. Range interupt on 6 sec cd. Grounding. Healing. offensive dispel.
Boomkin. IMMUNE to poly in Boomkin form.Healing.

All other dps casters have tools. MA is our tool. Arena rep shows that we were balanced. No evidence has been brought up to show that we won't be balanced at 85.


You're comparing Wrath of the Lich King mechanics to Cataclysm mechanics.

It doesn't matter how good Mages were or not during Wrath of the Lich King. What matters is the fact that Blizzard wishes to remove the arms race of CC reduction effects, and leaving any passive form of CC reduction, even if such is important to a class' survivability, must be removed. Mage Armor is no exception.

I would argue that this applies to the Stun removal from Blink as well, but you have to learn to walk before you can run. Blizzard can easily balance Mages without the need of a crutch like Mage Armor.
Reply Quote
85 Human Mage
3425
Mage armor reduces DoT's duration by 50%. Therefore DoT's do half the damage that they normally would do. Therefore Mage Armor reduces DoT's damage by 50%.

It really doesn't get much more simplier than that.

And then there's everything else that makes mage armor OP.

You don't get to have excellent control, mobility, and damage and get away with mage armor. Expect a nerf.


LOl. Ok I will hold my breath. Considering it was like this all through wrath. Like this all through beta. Lets what S9 is like. My prediction... mages middle of the pack. Warlocks best caster or close to it. Been like this for 8 seasons , nothing will change.

Reply Quote
leaving any passive form of CC reduction, even if such is important to a class' survivability, must be removed. Mage Armor is no exception.



I would argue that this applies to the Stun removal from Blink as well, but you have to learn to walk before you can run. Blizzard can easily balance Mages without the need of a crutch like Mage Armor.

rofl

Yeah let's remove every ability and talent that reduces or removes any type of CC, sounds fun. Maybe we start with divine shield?
Reply Quote
80 Blood Elf Mage
2220
I still want to know if its so Op against dot classes, Why are warlocks always better then mages. S5 - S8 Warlock rep >Mage rep. why were shadow priest teams fine against mages. Why was it in S7 and S8 the only offensive caster with lower rep then mages was poor old boomkins?


Because Warlocks have better group synergy than Mages (look at the number of successful comps for each class every season). While Mages have RMP which is undeniably strong, their versatility for other classes is lacking. I want to see this improved upon.
Reply Quote
85 Human Mage
3425
I still want to know if its so Op against dot classes, Why are warlocks always better then mages. S5 - S8 Warlock rep >Mage rep. why were shadow priest teams fine against mages. Why was it in S7 and S8 the only offensive caster with lower rep then mages was poor old boomkins?

could it be that when you take all the tools available and put em in context that mages needed MA to compete with other casters.

Warlocks. take less damage then mages, Heal in combat. have more stam. Offensive dispel.
Shadow priest. Offensive and defensive dispel. Able to heal teammates. take 15% less damage.
ele shaman. Range interupt on 6 sec cd. Grounding. Healing. offensive dispel.
Boomkin. IMMUNE to poly in Boomkin form.Healing.

All other dps casters have tools. MA is our tool. Arena rep shows that we were balanced. No evidence has been brought up to show that we won't be balanced at 85.


You're comparing Wrath of the Lich King mechanics to Cataclysm mechanics.

It doesn't matter how good Mages were or not during Wrath of the Lich King. What matters is the fact that Blizzard wishes to remove the arms race of CC reduction effects, and leaving any passive form of CC reduction, even if such is important to a class' survivability, must be removed. Mage Armor is no exception.

I would argue that this applies to the Stun removal from Blink as well, but you have to learn to walk before you can run. Blizzard can easily balance Mages without the need of a crutch like Mage Armor.


Alot of people write this stuff and it rings false. All healers were given dispels and dps specs of those classes has their dispel mechanics removed. Examples. Ret paladins lost cleanse. dps shamans lost cleansing totems.

Funny enough though Shadow priests kept offensive and defensive dispels. Why? because they want classes to be different. They like unique things. their goal is to balance specs and keep unique strengths when possible. MA is strong and unique. It gets far weaker if you have a melee on the other team. Imo Blizz has no problem with MA. Get use to it.

There are examples like this everywhere. why do warriors have 3 instant gap closers and paladins have none?

why do rogues have the only snare at 70%.

why do paladins have the only full immunity in the game?

Different classes are different.



Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
13855
I still want to know if its so Op against dot classes, Why are warlocks always better then mages. S5 - S8 Warlock rep >Mage rep. why were shadow priest teams fine against mages. Why was it in S7 and S8 the only offensive caster with lower rep then mages was poor old boomkins?

could it be that when you take all the tools available and put em in context that mages needed MA to compete with other casters.

Warlocks. take less damage then mages, Heal in combat. have more stam. Offensive dispel.
Shadow priest. Offensive and defensive dispel. Able to heal teammates. take 15% less damage.
ele shaman. Range interupt on 6 sec cd. Grounding. Healing. offensive dispel.
Boomkin. IMMUNE to poly in Boomkin form.Healing.

All other dps casters have tools. MA is our tool. Arena rep shows that we were balanced. No evidence has been brought up to show that we won't be balanced at 85.


You act like MA is a mage's only tool...you have the most developed PvP toolkit out of any class - Spellsteal, Polymorph, Counterspell, Time Warp, numerous snares and defensive cooldowns, even a self-heal. I think most people would agree that everything about Mage Armor is 'balanced' with the exception of the 50% reduction in CC/Silence effects. They took these types of skills away from every other class.

I'd like to see one mage make an honest argument about why they feel it is balanced that they are the one exception to that rule.
Edited by Seléné on 11/28/2010 11:51 PM PST
Reply Quote
85 Blood Elf Paladin
5130
ret lost more than cleanse...
and mages have full immunity too, plus more ways to get out of things than anyone except druids. learn your own class >.>
Reply Quote
85 Human Mage
3425
ret lost more than cleanse...
and mages have full immunity too, plus more ways to get out of things than anyone except druids. learn your own class >.>



Whoa I can attack while ice blocked? ice block in not divine shield.Read my post again. My point is that people have unique abilities all the time. People keep saying you can't have MA because no one else has CC reduction. There are a lot of abilities like that in the game.

My post was not an attack on ret but an example of how class balance does not mean everyone has the same abilities.



Reply Quote
80 Blood Elf Mage
2220

Alot of people write this stuff and it rings false. All healers were given dispels and dps specs of those classes has their dispel mechanics removed. Examples. Ret paladins lost cleanse. dps shamans lost cleansing totems.

Funny enough though Shadow priests kept offensive and defensive dispels. Why? because they want classes to be different. They like unique things. their goal is to balance specs and keep unique strengths when possible. MA is strong and unique. It gets far weaker if you have a melee on the other team. Imo Blizz has no problem with MA. Get use to it.

There are examples like this everywhere. why do warriors have 3 instant gap closers and paladins have none?

why do rogues have the only snare at 70%.

why do paladins have the only full immunity in the game?

Different classes are different.


The existence of other abilities is not justification for another ability.... just sayin'
Reply Quote

You act like MA is a mage's only tool...you have the most developed PvP toolkit out of any class - Spellsteal, Polymorph, Counterspell, Time Warp, numerous snares and defensive cooldowns, even a self-heal. I think most people would agree that everything about Mage Armor is 'balanced' with the exception of the 50% reduction in CC/Silence effects. They took these types of skills away from every other class.


Divine Shield - Immune to almost everything
Freedom - Immune to movement impairments
Aura Mastery - Immune to silence/interrupts
Hand of Protection - Immune to physical attacks
Hand of Sacrifice - Potential to break numerous CCs

Ok go find me classes with comparable toolkit/abilities. GL HF


Edited by Buglamp on 11/29/2010 12:04 AM PST
Reply Quote
80 Blood Elf Paladin
4155
If you guys haven't noticed ... ALL the classes... are getting absolutely game-breaking things except Hunters.

Ret paladins are @#$%'d by offensive dispells.

Mages are @!#$%'d by Ret Paladins being un-kiteable.

Rogues are !@#$'d by Mark and Faerie-fire.

DoT casters are @#$% by defensive dispells and mage armor.

Dog eats dog.

These things are completely undefeatable and unfair when it comes to certain classes.

Paper-rock-scissors.

I @#$% mages up as Retribution now that I can cleanse snares.
Reply Quote
85 Human Warlock
11100
If you guys haven't noticed ... ALL the classes... are getting absolutely game-breaking things except Hunters.

Ret paladins are @#$%'d by offensive dispells.

Mages are @!#$%'d by Ret Paladins being un-kiteable.

Rogues are !@#$'d by Mark and Faerie-fire.

DoT casters are @#$% by defensive dispells and mage armor.

Dog eats dog.

These things are completely undefeatable and unfair when it comes to certain classes.

Paper-rock-scissors.

I @#$% mages up as Retribution now that I can cleanse snares.


Ok, so Dispell>Ret>Mage>Dot and Dispell>Dot. Seems to me that Dot is the odd man out here, assuming mages can kill dispell.
Reply Quote
85 Human Warrior
0
It's still a damage reduction to magical dots because you're forcing them to reapply the dots earlier, making them missing out on chances to cast other spells during that time period.

You're also making them twice as vulnerable to spell lockouts, seeing as how they have to cast the dots twice as often.

You also spend 50% less time in magical CCs (pretty much all of them).

Mage Armor isn't balanced.


This post is very true.

And I suspect the OP is an alt, not a main. 3.6k achievement point is a little low for a main, unless you don't raid or pvp ever.

Gear also looks like the kind of gear an alt would have. Not all epic gems, and plenty of upgrades available through welfare, such as wrathful weapons, and only light experience in ICC.

Yet the OP claims that the rogue is his/her main, instead of a mage. I get the feeling that is untrue, and that the OP is trolling.
Edited by Eleazer on 11/29/2010 1:18 AM PST
Reply Quote
90 Human Rogue
13000
50% reduction in DoT duration equals a 50% damage reduction. The only way it would not is if the damage per tick were doubled or the DoT ticked twice as fast as normal in it's "half" duration.

Any understanding otherwise would be a misnomer.
Reply Quote
Not a math expert but I think 50% reduction in DoT duration equals 50% reduction in DoT duration.
Reply Quote
80 Human Warlock
7425
Alot of people write this stuff and it rings false. All healers were given dispels and dps specs of those classes has their dispel mechanics removed. Examples. Ret paladins lost cleanse. dps shamans lost cleansing totems.

Funny enough though Shadow priests kept offensive and defensive dispels. Why? because they want classes to be different.


If you have a mana bar, you can dispel two kinds of things. If you are a healer (and by "are a healer" I mean you have a healing spec and are currently in it, Ret Paladins aren't healers) you can dispel three kinds of things. Druids bear some note here: a feral druid in form *doesn't* have a mana bar, and accordingly doesn't have two types of dispel in form, when they drop form, what do you suppose even they have alongside their mana bar?

For your two examples, DPS Shaman have an offensive magic dispel and a curse dispel, for Ret it's poison and disease. Mages have offensive magic dispel and curse, just like Shaman (they only remove one effect, but they also gain that effect with their dispel, so there's at least a meaningful tradeoff there).

In all cases but one, your minimum two types of dispel (three for healers) are instant, have no cooldown, and are always available. That one exception is Warlocks, where no more than one can possibly be available at a time, they have cooldowns, and are fairly trivial to take away from the Warlock for a significant period of time. I just chalk 'lock dispels being an exception up to "'locks can't have nice things."

They like unique things. their goal is to balance specs and keep unique strengths when possible. MA is strong and unique. It gets far weaker if you have a melee on the other team.


...exactly the same thing could have been said of Nether Protection at 60%, or even 30%. There was still a way to counter it's effects (dispels). Mage Armor is too powerful to be completely uncounterable. Make it dispellable and make it expensive enough that the Mage will lose that particular mana war and it wouldn't be so bad.

Reply Quote
80 Human Warlock
7425
If you guys haven't noticed ... ALL the classes... are getting absolutely game-breaking things except Hunters.

Ret paladins are @#$%'d by offensive dispells.

Mages are @!#$%'d by Ret Paladins being un-kiteable.

Rogues are !@#$'d by Mark and Faerie-fire.

DoT casters are @#$% by defensive dispells and mage armor.

Dog eats dog.

These things are completely undefeatable and unfair when it comes to certain classes.

Paper-rock-scissors.

I @#$% mages up as Retribution now that I can cleanse snares.


Umm, amusingly, didn't you just say that Ret screws Mages but Ret is screwed by something Mages have in the first place?

So, who do DoTs and the new Fear (it effectively breaks on one hit, after the most recent damage cap reduction) screw as much as MA and defensive dispels screw them?
Reply Quote
90 Human Rogue
13000
Not a math expert but I think 50% reduction in DoT duration equals 50% reduction in DoT duration.


How can you fail so badly at basic math? Or is reading comprehension the problem. Damage does not mean damage per second.

If a hypothetical DoT does 100 damage per second over 10 seconds. That is 1000 total damage over the duration.

With mage armor it will do 100 damage per second over 5 seconds. That is 500 damage over the now halved duration.
Edited by Aeriwen on 11/29/2010 5:42 AM PST
Reply Quote
I am not sure if you're trolling if you're really arguing that 1 =/= 1.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]