Mage armor. An Education

85 Human Mage
9505
Dude, Frost is a spec. Mage is a class.
I'm talking about MAGES not about Frost.
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85 Human Warlock
5195

Mages will get nerfed if they're as overpowered in Cata as they are on live.


Coming straight from a Mage, how interesting. I bet if you took out the 50% Magic Duration reduction that would balance things out a bit. Kinda hard to lolspam instant casts while CC'd or having to actually worry about getting locked out of a school from an interrupt.
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85 Human Warlock
5195
Against paladins I don't think there's any reason to use MA. You can blink HoJ and you should trinket repent if we're assuming 1v1.

Vs. DKs I'm not sure anymore, they've changed significantly since patch it seems and a lot are running frost spec now, though I don't have issues with them. I assume you'd use frost and Ice Block strangulate.

Hunters use frost armor, and IL them down while hugging their melee range and keeping them rooted/snared. They're pretty much a joke right now, and the FoF procs if they put their pet on you...yeah...

I think in 1vs1 vs. any melee/hunter the FoF procs and higher armor from frost armor outweigh the benefits of using mage armor at all.


The only time you would want to burn your trinket on repentance is if you know the Pally has 3 stacks of Holy Power, otherwise go ahead and let him Crusader Strike you and just Blink away snare him and spell steal his HoF.

Wait so you can cast Ice Block while silenced???

Hunters you could get away with any Armor really. You can easily keep them snared via Cone of Cold + Frost Nova and they'll likely be dead before they melee swing through your Mana Shield.
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85 Human Mage
9505
Seems like i'll have a mage feast when my hunter gets to 80.
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The only time you would want to burn your trinket on repentance is if you know the Pally has 3 stacks of Holy Power, otherwise go ahead and let him Crusader Strike you and just Blink away snare him and spell steal his HoF.

There is nothing else you need your trinket for vs. ret and why let him in melee range when it's not necessary?

Wait so you can cast Ice Block while silenced???

Yeah since like....forever...


Hunters you could get away with any Armor really. You can easily keep them snared via Cone of Cold + Frost Nova and they'll likely be dead before they melee swing through your Mana Shield.

Get away with yeah but why wouldn't you use Frost when it's ideal?


Coming straight from a Mage, how interesting. I bet if you took out the 50% Magic Duration reduction that would balance things out a bit. Kinda hard to lolspam instant casts while CC'd or having to actually worry about getting locked out of a school from an interrupt.

Nerfing our defenses because our damage is overpowered makes absolutely no sense at all.
Edited by Buglamp on 11/30/2010 6:22 AM PST
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90 Undead Warlock
6005
Don't give me that stupid non-sense. Its hard enough to put a full set of dots on a target in PVP as it is. Mage armor requires that you need to do it twice as often for the same effect.

The CC duration reduction is the over the top element that makes the ability overpowered against everyone including other mages. There is absolutely no chance for a mage with frost armor up no matter what the gear, skill, or spec to beat a mage with mage armor up. That's why its overpowered.
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That's like complaining that a lock with a felhunter out will lose to a lock with a voidwalker out.

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85 Human Warlock
5195
Wait so you can cast Ice Block while silenced??


Yeah since like.... forever...


This doesn't seem broken to you?

Mages cast a spell while under the effect of an ability that is supposed to stop you from casting spells? How freaking lolfacerollezmode do they have to make mages????
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This doesn't seem broken to you?

Mages cast a spell while under the effect of an ability that is supposed to stop you from casting spells? How freaking lolfacerollezmode do they have to make mages????


Mage isn't the only class that can do this.

Fel hunter can spell lock while lock is silenced for example.
Paladins can bubble silences.
Shamans still can drop totems.
SPriests can disperse not only when silenced but even locked out of shadow.

Before trying to argue class balance maybe you should learn more about the classes. :/

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Oh Buglamp, you provide endless amusement:
All I said in what you quoted is that reducing DoT duration by 50% =/= reducing DoT ticks by 50% and that reducing DoT ticks by 50% would be more powerful, so "50% reduced DoT duration" is more precise wording than "50% less damage taken from DoTs" would be.

No, you're wrong. Reducing DoT ticks by 50% would be exactly the same as reducing DoT duration by 50%. They both make you take 50% less damage, 50% less DPS, and reduce the warlock's DPCT by 50%. The only difference between the scenarios is in the 50% duration case, you see bigger red numbers on your screen but less of them. In the 50% tick case, you see smaller red numbers on your screen but more of them. Your problem is because of your ignorance of mathematics (and don't feel bad, this seems fairly typical amongst pro-Mage Armor people) you don't understand that the number of damaging events is actually just as important as the size of each damaging event when determining DPS.
Nothing you just said in your wall of text actually contradicts anything I said. You're not arguing with me you're just stating the obvious and acting like it proves something I never even said wrong.

This is you putting your fingers in your ears and saying "nyah nyah nyah, I'm not listening." Either that or you just don't understand.
DoT does 100 damage over 10 seconds
This DoT on Mage Armor as it is in live will still do 50 damage in 5 seconds.
If Mage Armor reduced DoT ticks, this DoT would do 25 damage in 5 seconds.

If Mage Armor reduced DoT ticks instead of duration, the DoT would be doing more like 40 damage in 5 seconds, because you would have 100% Haunt uptime and 3 stacks of Shadow Embrace instead of 50% Haunt uptime and 1 stack of Shadow Embrace. You would also be taking Drain Life ticks for additional damage, since without the duration reduction, the Warlock can actually do something other than keep spamming his dots trying to stick them. Filler damage (i.e. Drain Life or Shadowbolt) is actually around 50% of a Warlock's damage in a stand-still-and-freecast scenario.
Tell me, against which Mage Armor do you have a higher chance of killing the target in a 5 second CC duration?

Yeah... :|

Looks like I have the same chance with either type of Mage Armor, since, you know, as I've conclusively demonstrated multiple times in this thread, they both have the exact same effect on DPS.
You can apologize for being condescending now, or slink off and pretend you didn't read this.

Yeah, either that or you can realize that this whole thing has backfired on you, you have no idea how your own spells or your enemy's spells work, and you can say it with me now:

Mage Armor really is permanent shield wall versus DoT classes.

I knew you could.
Edited by Venificus on 11/30/2010 11:50 AM PST
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No, you're wrong. Reducing DoT ticks by 50% would be exactly the same as reducing DoT duration by 50%.


I got to this, laughed, and used my ignore button.
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16 Troll Hunter
90
blizzard expressed that they want CC in PvP to be less important

rofl, link?


increased cast times, slowed down combat, increased health pools. i dont see how that suggests they expect CC to become as overused as it was in wrath. they provide more ways to prevent and remove CC (interrupts, dispels, removal of trash buffs).
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74 Draenei Mage
750
Oh Buglamp, you provide endless amusement


he was just as bad on his druid ^_^
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80 Orc Warlock
5075

increased cast times, slowed down combat, increased health pools. i dont see how that suggests they expect CC to become as overused as it was in wrath. they provide more ways to prevent and remove CC (interrupts, dispels, removal of trash buffs).


In wrath CC was more of an interrupt or extended silence. The goal in Cata is that CC chains must be set up and at the proper time to achieve kills. While they are more preventable, they are supposed to be more rewarding when they do land thanks to the removal of duration talents. Dispels are not currently functioning as Blizzard's stated intent. They will undoubtedly receive some change as the next season progresses.
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85 Human Paladin
7855
ITT, that same warlock that keeps claiming mage armor is a literal 50% cut to DoT damage not just on paper, but in actual gameplay.

Certainly mage armor will cut your DoT's damage by 50% if you are too stupid to recast it when it falls off, otherwise the only thing it affects is how many GCDs you use, and how much mana you consume.

Will a warlock or spriest ever OOM before a mage in a PvP scenario? Highly unlikely. Will a warlock or spriest be disadvantaged significantly because they are forced to use more GCDs to deal the same amount of damage to a mage? Absolutely not.

Shadow form and soul link serve the *exact same purpose*, but with a more direct approach (straight up damage mitigation).

So how is it not fair that mage armor forces you to use more GCDs to deal the same damage, but at the same time it is perfectly fair that shadow form and soul link do the exact same thing?


A lot of the complaints surrounding Mage Armor has to do with the reduction in duration of crowd control effects, which is a legitimate complaint. Although magic-based DoTs lasting for half their duration does indeed suck for the specs that rely on them (Shadow Priests, Affliction Warlocks, possibly Fire Mages too), I don't feel it's the aspect of the ability that makes it overpowered. It's very inconvenient, if anything.

If Mage Armor no longer reduced the duration of crowd control and silence effects, then I feel that would make the ability perfectly balanced again.
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Oh Buglamp, you provide endless amusement


he was just as bad on his druid ^_^

I was way worse on my druid dude.
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85 Human Mage
3425
Oh Buglamp, you provide endless amusement:
All I said in what you quoted is that reducing DoT duration by 50% =/= reducing DoT ticks by 50% and that reducing DoT ticks by 50% would be more powerful, so "50% reduced DoT duration" is more precise wording than "50% less damage taken from DoTs" would be.

No, you're wrong. Reducing DoT ticks by 50% would be exactly the same as reducing DoT duration by 50%. They both make you take 50% less damage, 50% less DPS, and reduce the warlock's DPCT by 50%. The only difference between the scenarios is in the 50% duration case, you see bigger red numbers on your screen but less of them. In the 50% tick case, you see smaller red numbers on your screen but more of them. Your problem is because of your ignorance of mathematics (and don't feel bad, this seems fairly typical amongst pro-Mage Armor people) you don't understand that the number of damaging events is actually just as important as the size of each damaging event when determining DPS.
Nothing you just said in your wall of text actually contradicts anything I said. You're not arguing with me you're just stating the obvious and acting like it proves something I never even said wrong.

This is you putting your fingers in your ears and saying "nyah nyah nyah, I'm not listening." Either that or you just don't understand.
DoT does 100 damage over 10 seconds
This DoT on Mage Armor as it is in live will still do 50 damage in 5 seconds.
If Mage Armor reduced DoT ticks, this DoT would do 25 damage in 5 seconds.

If Mage Armor reduced DoT ticks instead of duration, the DoT would be doing more like 40 damage in 5 seconds, because you would have 100% Haunt uptime and 3 stacks of Shadow Embrace instead of 50% Haunt uptime and 1 stack of Shadow Embrace. You would also be taking Drain Life ticks for additional damage, since without the duration reduction, the Warlock can actually do something other than keep spamming his dots trying to stick them. Filler damage (i.e. Drain Life or Shadowbolt) is actually around 50% of a Warlock's damage in a stand-still-and-freecast scenario.
Tell me, against which Mage Armor do you have a higher chance of killing the target in a 5 second CC duration?

Yeah... :|

Looks like I have the same chance with either type of Mage Armor, since, you know, as I've conclusively demonstrated multiple times in this thread, they both have the exact same effect on DPS.
You can apologize for being condescending now, or slink off and pretend you didn't read this.

Yeah, either that or you can realize that this whole thing has backfired on you, you have no idea how your own spells or your enemy's spells work, and you can say it with me now:

Mage Armor really is permanent shield wall versus DoT classes.

I knew you could.


You don't know what Dps means. Damage per Second. Mage armor has no affect on the dps of a dot. if you change MA to reduce dot damage by 30% instead of duration by 50% you would be buffing it.

Do a little napkin math , get a calculator and keep in mind what dps means. then you can come back to the debate and make some good points.

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You don't know what Dps means. Damage per Second. Mage armor has no affect on the dps of a dot. if you change MA to reduce dot damage by 30% instead of duration by 50% you would be buffing it.

Do a little napkin math , get a calculator and keep in mind what dps means. then you can come back to the debate and make some good points.


Don't even bother with him dude, he's one of the posters who will just constantly repeat the same argument even if you prove it wrong.

If he said cats were extinct and a tiger attacked him he'd call it a bear.
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