Vampiric Embrace: The numbers

90 Night Elf Priest
7320
Hey guys! I know we have several topics about this already, but as the OP for those is now banned, I figured I’d create a new thread with new information.

Schnorki, the author of the old threads, did some testing, and has this to say

Ended up procrastinating again and adding some DPS calculations to my lvl 85 gear spreadsheet...figured it's a quick small step from that to an effective self-healing comparison.

note:
    - assumed gear was full epic t1 s9, geared towards haste > crit > mastery
    - spriest healing includes VE and DP-healing
    - feral healing does NOT factor in nurturing instinct (rogue/warr do include quickening/dressing)
    - stam-buff-talents aren't included, so really the lock heals and such go up even further. neither is the fact that melees tend to have more life to begin with (all based on how much life a spriest in that gear has)
    - rotation: dots up, blast at 3 orbs, fiend on cd, flay to fill


Visit the link below for a table:

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/6672/selfheals.jpg

Note: Tables are hard :-\ If anyone knows a way of making one in the post, without requiring people to view an img, that would be greatly appreciated.

Conclusion:

Out of all the self-healing classes, shadowpriests are bottom tier, if not the bottom rung, which is an awful place to be for the class that was made popular by its vampiric aspect. Here is a list of suggestions from the other threads that the community has come up with to fix this problem:

-Add a glyph that reduces damage done while buffing self healing done by VE
-Add a glyph that removes the party healing component while buffing the self heal component
-Unlink VE from VT in the talent tree
-Make VE a talent that reads, "Fills you with the embrace of Shadow energy, reducing all shadow damage caused by 33% and causing you to be healed for 25% of any single-target Shadow spell damage you deal.
-Make VE scale off total life of caster
-Buff VE and remove the group healing component, and then add a glyph that reduces the amount of self-healing received while adding a group heal component


If I missed any, let me know and I'll add it to the post.
Reply Quote
85 Human Warlock
9865
Your passive heals suck but you have access to absorbs and active heals. I just got trolled didn't I?
Reply Quote
85 Tauren Druid
6190
you are bottom tier for passive healing (and i would say claiming siphon life for locks as passive is a BIG stretch), sure.

you simply cannot ignore the significant advantage shadow has in active healing over all of those other specs though. no pvp engagement is won/lost on passive healing. plenty are won/lost due to effective spot healing (in this expansion, i will admit i have not seen a beta arena match won by hybrid healing of any sort).

additionally, passive healing is in effect additional mitigation. if you really want to get thorough with this, you need to factor in things such as shadowform, soul link, battle stance, armor values, etc. even then you are ignoring things like mobility and active defenses that cannot be as easily quantified.

in the end, the only truly relevant commentary you can make is something like 'spriest survivability in pvp feels too low.' outline the situations you find this to be the case, post some beta arena videos that illustrate the problem, etc. i will admit i haven't followed shadow all that closely, they very well could have survivability issues on beta that i haven't noticed, improving VE might very well be the best way to help with that.

this line of argument is terrible though, and won't convince anyone who actually stops to consider how things work in practice.

isolating one aspect of a spec/class's survivability and trying to make any kind of coherent argument is silly at best, intentionally misleading at worst.
Reply Quote
90 Orc Warlock
11205
Meaningless tables are fun.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
13230
Your passive heals suck but you have access to absorbs and active heals. I just got trolled didn't I?


We barely have enough mana for 5 flash heals at level 85 and have no dispel resistance.

No, you didn't get trolled.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Priest
7320
you are bottom tier for passive healing (and i would say claiming siphon life for locks as passive is a BIG stretch), sure.

you simply cannot ignore the significant advantage shadow has in active healing over all of those other specs though. no pvp engagement is won/lost on passive healing. plenty are won/lost due to effective spot healing (in this expansion, i will admit i have not seen a beta arena match won by hybrid healing of any sort).

additionally, passive healing is in effect additional mitigation. if you really want to get thorough with this, you need to factor in things such as shadowform, soul link, battle stance, armor values, etc. even then you are ignoring things like mobility and active defenses that cannot be as easily quantified.

in the end, the only truly relevant commentary you can make is something like 'spriest survivability in pvp feels too low.' outline the situations you find this to be the case, post some beta arena videos that illustrate the problem, etc. i will admit i haven't followed shadow all that closely, they very well could have survivability issues on beta that i haven't noticed, improving VE might very well be the best way to help with that.

this line of argument is terrible though, and won't convince anyone who actually stops to consider how things work in practice.

isolating one aspect of a spec/class's survivability and trying to make any kind of coherent argument is silly at best, intentionally misleading at worst.


Why is siphon life being passive a big stretch?

While shadowpriests do indeed have active healing on their bars, it's hardly available for use - in fact, at 85 we oom after a bare few flash heals. Additionally, plenty of pvp engagements are won/lost based on passive healing.

The main issue here is that VE in its current iteration is pretty much terrible, and will actually decrease in value as the next expansion comes by with opponents getting higher and higher levels of resil, this lowering our damage on them, further reducing our heals. Normally, if a talent/mechanic is underperforming one could just drop it. However, VE is important to the shadowpriest for two very big reasons:

-It's linked to VT
-It is THE reason many players actually rolled the shadowpriest class/spec combination. It was our defining characteristic in the past and now it's gutted, a shadow of it's former self.

With these two things in mind, what do you think?
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
13230


-It's linked to VT
-It is THE reason many players actually rolled the shadowpriest class/spec combination. It was our defining characteristic in the past and now it's gutted, a shadow of it's former self.

With these two things in mind, what do you think?


Don't forget, our execute completely destroys our health pool ^^
Reply Quote
85 Tauren Druid
6190
Your passive heals suck but you have access to absorbs and active heals. I just got trolled didn't I?


We barely have enough mana for 5 flash heals at level 85 and have no dispel resistance.

No, you didn't get trolled.


base mana is what, like 20k?

Flash Heal Level 85
28% of base mana 40 yd range
1.5 sec cast
Heals a friendly target for 6272 to 7288.


so 5 flashes would be 140% base mana. i seriously doubt you are running around with 30k mana at 85 in pvp gear. in fact i know you aren't.

try again please.


Why is siphon life being passive a big stretch?
that was a brain fart, i meant drain life.

drain life cannot be considered passive, for obvious reasons i hope.


While shadowpriests do indeed have active healing on their bars, it's hardly available for use - in fact, at 85 we oom after a bare few flash heals. Additionally, plenty of pvp engagements are won/lost based on passive healing.
find one from beta arenas.

the mana cost on flash heals is extreme, but that still doesn't change the fact that a good spriest will be using active healing abilities in certain situations. you cannot leave those abilities out if you want to have a serious discussion about healing or pvp survivability.


The main issue here is that VE in its current iteration is pretty much terrible, and will actually decrease in value as the next expansion comes by with opponents getting higher and higher levels of resil, this lowering our damage on them, further reducing our heals. Normally, if a talent/mechanic is underperforming one could just drop it. However, VE is important to the shadowpriest for two very big reasons:

-It's linked to VT

-It is THE reason many players actually rolled the shadowpriest class/spec combination. It was our defining characteristic in the past and now it's gutted, a shadow of it's former self.
it will not decrease in value so long as offensive stat increases keep pace with defensive stat increases.

everyone's self healing was nerfed hard, yours was one of many.

feel free to argue yours is too weak, but that only has any meaning or context when you are discussing shadow survivability as a whole, not cherry picking abilities to suit your argument.

With these two things in mind, what do you think?
i still think you are ignoring the massive amount of other survivability factors that affect the pvp defensive equation by electing to focus on the smallest area possible to try and make your point seem stronger.

as i said before, shadow survivability could be too low, and VE could be the best place to help it. focusing on one narrow aspect is pointless and your point will get lost in arguments with people pointing this fact out to you.
Edited by Cihlardr on 11/28/2010 3:16 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Priest
7320
From some barely legible notes I have from beta, it looks like priests have around 25000 base mana, with ~60,000 total mana in pve gear, so less in pvp. Flash heal costs ~6000 mana, so that's just under 10 flash's for an entire mana bar.

Flash Heal also heals for just under 10k, so that puts us at one entire mana bar to heal one entire health bar, give or take.

Please realize that we lose pushback resistence as well as 15% dmg redux from shadowform everytime we hop out to heal, making it near impossible to heal while being trained (when you need to heal).

EDIT: Was posting before your response =3

it will not decrease in value so long as offensive stat increases keep pace with defensive stat increases.

everyone's self healing was nerfed hard, yours was one of many.

feel free to argue yours is too weak, but that only has any meaning or context when you are discussing shadow survivability as a whole, not cherry picking abilities to suit your argument.


About the decreasing in value - I'm going to let that one go as I have no idea what the stat difference will be from tier to tier, but it's my personal opinion that it won't scale like that.

Everyone's self healing was nerfed, but VE scales on damage we do, not of total HP. Everyone else's self heal will scale with pvp gear, while ours scales in pve gear. Which is awful.

Shadow survivibility as a whole IS what i'm talking about, however, because of the aforementioned problem with flash heal being essentially unusable while trained. We have a shield (which is awful even for the spec that uses them as its mainstay) once every 30 seconds, and VE. I'm simply comparing the self healing ability of a shadowpriest to the self healing of any other class - not taking into account the damage mitigation talents/abilities.
Edited by Koravov on 11/28/2010 3:29 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
13230

base mana is what, like 20k?

Flash Heal Level 85
28% of base mana 40 yd range
1.5 sec cast
Heals a friendly target for 6272 to 7288.


so 5 flashes would be 140% base mana. i seriously doubt you are running around with 30k mana at 85 in pvp gear. in fact i know you aren't.
try again please.


Yeah, I forgot we are a dps spec and have some actual dps spells that we have to use. It's so much fun using our only defensive cool down for mana so that we can keep on casting those 10% flash heals.

it will not decrease in value so long as offensive stat increases keep pace with defensive stat increases.


In theory, yes. But you have to account that a shadow priest that is trained has hardly any pressure, which leads to little healing from VE. Not to mention the initial health jump from 80->85 puts a huge gap in the abilities compared to 80 dps -> 85 dps.
Edited by Bieberfever on 11/28/2010 3:39 PM PST
Reply Quote
85 Tauren Druid
6190
Shadow survivibility as a whole IS what i'm talking about, however, because of the aforementioned problem with flash heal being essentially unusable while trained. We have a shield (which is awful even for the spec that uses them as its mainstay) once every 30 seconds, and VE. I'm simply comparing the self healing ability of a shadowpriest to the self healing of any other class - not taking into account the damage mitigation talents/abilities.
ok, then make that topic. don't try to make misleading graphs that detract from your argument.

find some beta arena footage that shows shadow's survivability to be poor in team situations, that shows access to active healing being limited, etc.

then you can say that the spec's survivability is low and post ideas of how to fix it.

also, i thought mana pools were around the 80k range for most casters in pvp gear, slightly higher for healers. hmmmm.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
13230

find some beta arena footage that shows shadow's survivability to be poor in team situations, that shows access to active healing being limited, etc.

then you can say that the spec's survivability is low and post ideas of how to fix it.


It's not like the OP is alone. Go look at arenajunkies where 8/8 season gladiators are talking about how bad priests (as every spec) are on beta.

also, i thought mana pools were around the 80k range for most casters in pvp gear, slightly higher for healers. hmmmm.


Devouring Plague: 25% base mana
Vampiric Touch: 16% base mana
Shadow Word: Pain: 22% base mana
Mind Blast: 17% base mana
Power Word Shield: 19% base mana

It's not like Shadow Priests are frost mages at 85. We have TERRIBLE mana efficiency.
Reply Quote
74 Draenei Mage
750
Mana pools are closer to 80k+ in the beta 85 pvp gear.

also as much as you keep trying to, you can't ignore your ability to shield, heal and no-cd dispel in a comparison like this.

The only way you could ignore them is if putting a points into shadow removed your ability to heal.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
13230
Mana pools are closer to 80k+ in the beta 85 pvp gear.

also as much as you keep trying to, you can't ignore your ability to shield, heal and no-cd dispel in a comparison like this.

The only way you could ignore them is if putting a points into shadow removed your ability to heal.


Shield as a non disc priest are incredibly weak. Most classes can white swing crit for the entire shield @ 85.

Heal? We can't heal when we are being trained. Not when every melee class has an interrupt. We also take 15% more damage while healing out of form.

I'll give you dispel, sure.
Edited by Bieberfever on 11/28/2010 6:59 PM PST
Reply Quote
85 Tauren Druid
6190


It's not like the OP is alone. Go look at arenajunkies where 8/8 season gladiators are talking about how bad priests (as every spec) are on beta.
if the problem is so widespread for shadow, finding footage illustrating it should be simple enough. i am not sure why using such footage to strengthen your argument isn't something people choose to do on their own, but whatever.

off topic: i have seen plenty of footage showing disc to be very weak defensively, just not as much for shadow, which is why i ask for it here.



Devouring Plague: 25% base mana
Vampiric Touch: 16% base mana
Shadow Word: Pain: 22% base mana
Mind Blast: 17% base mana
Power Word Shield: 19% base mana

It's not like Shadow Priests are frost mages at 85. We have TERRIBLE mana efficiency.
ok, then make a thread about that. show some footage of beta arenas where shadow priests are using their mana CDs and not being careless with their mana, then suggest ways to fix it.

simply posting mana cost numbers doesn't mean anything as it leaves out mana regen mechanic consideration.

edit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABKQEuDtsN8&feature=related

shows spriest mana pool at 85 in pvp gear to be ~95k.
Edited by Cihlardr on 11/28/2010 3:54 PM PST
Reply Quote
74 Draenei Mage
750
shows spriest mana pool at 85 in pvp gear to be ~95k.

Guess I lied :D
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Priest
7320
You're right - I must have used numbers from a previous phase of the beta or something. Although I would note (like it appears you have done) that that player is clearly experimenting with his gear, having mana jump from 90k to 105k, etc.

As for having video proof, I guess I could trawl Youtube for such things, but beta is over and I can no longer make one myself.
Reply Quote
74 Draenei Mage
750
that player is clearly experimenting with his gear, having mana jump from 90k to 105k, etc.


procs, if you watch the match it goes up as soon as he gets a buff
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]