Vampiric Embrace: The numbers

80 Orc Shaman
2450
Do u realize that a priest can just stop dps and off heal?
Or you just see what u want to see?
And priest offheals are fantastic even at 85.
None of the listed class there can offheal like a priest can.

Also shield* on your self and friendly targets dosent that count as a heal somehow?


Priests have the worst mana regen at 85, hands down. Flash heal would kill your mana pool and if u look at the video above the spriest is at 10% or less mana most of the video, she is BARELY able to dps as it is.

there is no doubt that shadow priest have the best off heals in the game right now, this is fact. The downfall of the priest class has always been poor regen and ridiculous spell costs.
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80 Gnome Warlock
2455
Ho i see u clearly explained why lol no.


Mana problems prevent this or have you not read the rest of this thread?


Thats the reason why priest dont have infinite mana otherwise u would be able to heal and dps forever.
An example of that is priest on live with infinite mana its impossible to kill when he can just los and heal everytime he drops below 50% without any cost.
Plz what other class can offheal like a priest without running oom?Ret for example 3 fol and hes drained and the only way to regain mana is devine plealol 10% of 5k of mana or be in melee range to generate holypower or judgement of the wise didnt count that priest offheals are way better then a ret and they also have a shield.
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80 Gnome Warlock
2455
To sum it up if you want better passive heals from damage u deal you have to give up the ability to shield and offheal.
This thread is just stupid.
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85 Tauren Druid
6190

no.
its just too much fun too see someone so clueless about whats gonna happen at lvl 85 that he actually post about FLASH HEAL as a spriest way around the VE nerf.
i never said it was a way around the VE nerf. i said that you cannot ignore the ability to effectively heal when talking about survivability, that simply comparing passive heals and ignoring all else is not an effective way to make any significant statement about the spec's defensive ability in pvp.

edit: it's just as bad as people who don't consider the heavy mana costs of shadow healing when discussing the power of flash heal. you have to consider the wider picture.

. It doesn't take much brain cells to know that Shadow is doing poorly in self heals, damage, and mana, but then again that's what I kind of expect from people on these forums.
i never, not once, disputed any of this. don't put words in my mouth.

You don't need video evidence to prove something is wrong with the class if people are making intellectual posts saying it is terrible.
why not? if there are problems, it will be clearly visible in videos. for example, the video posted earlier in this thread plainly showed shadow's mana issues. why is the first instinct not to show evidence of the problem in real pvp situations? why is it expected that everyone else should simply believe what you say and trust you to be impartial?

Then again he believes Ferals are fine so I am probably just getting trolled.
we have another thread for you to whine about this in. i am looking forward to you watching some feral beta arena and coming to comment on it in that thread.
Edited by Cihlardr on 11/29/2010 8:40 AM PST
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85 Tauren Druid
6190

Out of curiosity have you even played the Beta?
no, which is why i am dependent on watching footage to base my opinions off of.

if you believe feral is too strong, as it appears, show me something (in that other thread) to convince me. i don't know if the spec is too strong or not, as i have not personally tested it at level cap. from what i have seen, it appears strong but not as overpowered as people are claiming.

i am sure you will understand if i don't just take you (or anyone else) at your word. no one is perfectly impartial on these boards, least of all someone with an agenda. the only thing that doesn't lie is video evidence, though even that is easily influenced in controlled 1v1 situations and such.
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100 Undead Priest
9000
To sum it up if you want better passive heals from damage u deal you have to give up the ability to shield and offheal.
This thread is just stupid.


Your summation/face are just stupid.


If VE wasn't linked to a required ability, I think you'd see most spriests drop it in a heartbeat. That is a lame talent. If Bliz can't make Vampiric Embrace attractive in the spirit of its original function, they should just rework it as something else.
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80 Gnome Warlock
2455
Your summation/face are just stupid.


If VE wasn't linked to a required ability, I think you'd see most spriests drop it in a heartbeat. That is a lame talent. If Bliz can't make Vampiric Embrace attractive in the spirit of its original function, they should just rework it as something else.


See u cant even read and u come here callin people stupid ur probably 1 of those bads without any pvp exeprience camin here on the forums hopin to get taken in cosideration.
Pathetic.
Ve+shield+devouring plague+offheals=pretty good self heals and you probably didnt even know devouring plague heals you because you dont even have it on your bars this forums need less people like you posting ignorance.
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100 Human Warrior
14430
I'm curious how the HPS of bloodcraze/second wind were calculated.

Looking at that chart it looks like you're assuming a 100% uptime, which is pretty outrageous. Bloodcraze is more like a 50% uptime in normal circumstances, which brings its hps down dramatically. Similarly uptime on secondwind is only as reliable as the opponent. Some opponents it will almost always be up, others you might never see it have an effect.
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80 Undead Priest
3120
Your summation/face are just stupid.


If VE wasn't linked to a required ability, I think you'd see most spriests drop it in a heartbeat. That is a lame talent. If Bliz can't make Vampiric Embrace attractive in the spirit of its original function, they should just rework it as something else.


See u cant even read and u come here callin people stupid ur probably 1 of those bads without any pvp exeprience camin here on the forums hopin to get taken in cosideration.
Pathetic.
Ve+shield+devouring plague+offheals=pretty good self heals and you probably didnt even know devouring plague heals you because you dont even have it on your bars this forums need less people like you posting ignorance.


You are the one that is posting out of ignorance. VE+DP = awful heals at 85. PW:S requires mana (mana that we can hardly spare) as does dropping shadowform to heal so don't try to equate those two things to the passive healing that other classes get. Shadowpriest mana is awful at 85 and dispels destroy the paltry healing that we would even get from VE. You're just posting b/c some spriest touched you wrong in a duel.
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85 Troll Death Knight
6090
not to mention spriest mastery is dispellable+RNG+mb was a dps loss over cancelaura (when it worked)
Edited by Laffs on 11/29/2010 10:51 AM PST
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82 Undead Priest
2700
Your summation/face are just stupid.


If VE wasn't linked to a required ability, I think you'd see most spriests drop it in a heartbeat. That is a lame talent. If Bliz can't make Vampiric Embrace attractive in the spirit of its original function, they should just rework it as something else.


See u cant even read and u come here callin people stupid ur probably 1 of those bads without any pvp exeprience camin here on the forums hopin to get taken in cosideration.
Pathetic.
Ve+shield+devouring plague+offheals=pretty good self heals and you probably didnt even know devouring plague heals you because you dont even have it on your bars this forums need less people like you posting ignorance.


You are the one that is posting out of ignorance. VE+DP = awful heals at 85. PW:S requires mana (mana that we can hardly spare) as does dropping shadowform to heal so don't try to equate those two things to the passive healing that other classes get. Shadowpriest mana is awful at 85 and dispels destroy the paltry healing that we would even get from VE. You're just posting b/c some spriest touched you wrong in a duel.


If we're going to talk strictly about passive healing we need to talk strictly about passive healing and in that scenario you can't include VE as part of the discussion because its not technically passive as its based on an active portion of your dps. How do you measure how much dps someone is doing? Is it a PVE environment or is it a PVP environment, is he being focused? etc.

My point is, the data shown includes passive and non passive and other forms of healing that are completely out of control of the users and we have no idea what type of uptime or values were used. For all we know it could have been an arbitrary pick and placement of numbers.

Going off of what someone else said, for example, how were the warrior numbers calculated? Blood Craze is a 10% proc off of damage to do some healing, Second Wind only procs when the warriors stunned or rooted, how often are they reliably getting into those situations? What type of opponent are they fighting? Are they even able to get into melee range to get a Bloodthirst off?

Just like modeling dps, trying to model these #'s in a way such as this gives an unfair picture of the actual real life scenarios, sure full on possible potential but what are the real uptimes.

Disclaimer: none of this means I don't think spriests need more mana regen options and a VE buff. Simply discussing how the data could be viewed.
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80 Gnome Warlock
2455
You are the one that is posting out of ignorance. VE+DP = awful heals at 85. PW:S requires mana (mana that we can hardly spare) as does dropping shadowform to heal so don't try to equate those two things to the passive healing that other classes get. Shadowpriest mana is awful at 85 and dispels destroy the paltry healing that we would even get from VE. You're just posting b/c some spriest touched you wrong in a duel.


So wait to your avarage passive costless heals you add Pws costs mana and dropping out of shadow form costs mana and heals cost mana.well no !#%@.
Would it sound balanced to you if u had infinite mana like a mage for example and u could offheal and shield without any cost.
Just troll checking you.
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85 Undead Warlock
12590
Clearly locks are going to be at the top of that chart in either event, LEAGUES above anyone else with 20% dmg reduction as well...no one is saying locks are balanced, but put simply, it seems everyone else might be.


Afflocks remain a caster tank. It's fairly necessary for the spec. They already significantly dumped on afflock dots and healing.

Spriests have dispersion and bubbles as the other caster tank in the game and they can also talent into improved fade. I realize that a spriest bubble is not huge, but glyphed, dispersion has a very, very low cooldown. Shadowform also provides nice damage reduction. Spriests are not at all "squishy" like a mage.

The only way I can see spriests needing more healing is if one of the following conditions exists:

Dispersion somehow has its cooldown increased
-or-
Spriest DPS is low and it takes longer for a spriest to kill a target

I would argue that spriest might have more mana problems than survival problems. But that's just what I've been able to notice from comments of folks who were lucky enough to be in the beta. Priest spells are awfully expensive, seems like.

I can't find a lot of people saying they die a lot as a spriest. Just that they go OOM in record time.
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80 Undead Priest
3120
You are the one that is posting out of ignorance. VE+DP = awful heals at 85. PW:S requires mana (mana that we can hardly spare) as does dropping shadowform to heal so don't try to equate those two things to the passive healing that other classes get. Shadowpriest mana is awful at 85 and dispels destroy the paltry healing that we would even get from VE. You're just posting b/c some spriest touched you wrong in a duel.


So wait to your avarage passive costless heals you add Pws costs mana and dropping out of shadow form costs mana and heals cost mana.well no !#%@.
Would it sound balanced to you if u had infinite mana like a mage for example and u could offheal and shield without any cost.
Just troll checking you.


I'm not asking for infinite mana, I am asking to at least be able to passively heal as well as a lock, rogue, or warrior considering VE has been one of the key components of the shadow tree since vanilla. Like you even say, VE isn't even passive yet even with 100% freecast time our damage won't even put out as much heals as your fel armor. Also don't forget that our PW:S can be dispelled quite easily unlike other passive healing talents.

So basically all of our survival tools other than dispersion can be dispelled (PW:S and the DoTs which are the main engine behind VE heals).
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82 Undead Priest
2700
After watching a fair amount of video footage of spriest pvp in the beta it looks like to me the survivability and ability to keep your health up while keeping pressure is somewhat decent and reliable. The largest problem really is just the god awful mana efficiency. Most of the spriests were continually scrounging around at about 9% mana barely able to do anything after having been in combat for 30-60 seconds. I believe if mana efficiency was brought back to what it was pre 4.0 where you would have to consistently dispersion to keep your mana high but you could at least keep your mana high. Healing or aoeing or providing any sort of utility being the main mana sponge.

Dpsing alone shouldn't cause an spriest to reach 0% mana.
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85 Tauren Druid
6190

Um, it's just the Bleeds that need toned down a little at 85.
then please show some pve simcraft/parses or beta arena footage that shows this in the feral thread.

this is not me trolling, this is me trying to see exactly when you think the spec is doing something too strong. it's a serious request i wish someone would respond to.

This thread is about Vampiric Embrace discussion and the reason Shadow Priests are asking for changes is because the self-heals is what sort of defined Shadow as its own little class.
again, a legit complaint. my issue was with the OP's attempt to show shadow's pvp survivability was too low simply by comparing passive healing, and doing a terrible job at that.

if the argument is simply a flavor one, then i am sorry for getting off topic, that is just not how it seems to me. if the argument is that shadow pvp survivability is too low at 85, like i said, please show me some footage of this being the case so i can see your PoV.

from what i have seen, the mana issues, terrible mobility, and susceptibility to defensive dispels all seemed like bigger issues. again, this is why i am asking for something to look at and see where you guys are coming from.

I'm not going to get into a flame war but Shadow is indeed lacking but it just maybe the gear scaling since PVPing in blues isn't the most ideal way of balancing. Playing the Beta Shadow has completely shifted from the Wrath style and more towards of a BC style apparently.
then please help me see the kind of things you are talking about, that's all i am asking.

After watching a fair amount of video footage of spriest pvp in the beta it looks like to me the survivability and ability to keep your health up while keeping pressure is somewhat decent and reliable. The largest problem really is just the god awful mana efficiency. Most of the spriests were continually scrounging around at about 9% mana barely able to do anything after having been in combat for 30-60 seconds. I believe if mana efficiency was brought back to what it was pre 4.0 where you would have to consistently dispersion to keep your mana high but you could at least keep your mana high. Healing or aoeing or providing any sort of utility being the main mana sponge.



Dpsing alone shouldn't cause an spriest to reach 0% mana.
this is pretty much what i have seen in every spriest pvp video i have watched. agree with all of this.
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80 Orc Shaman
2450

I would argue that spriest might have more mana problems than survival problems. But that's just what I've been able to notice from comments of folks who were lucky enough to be in the beta. Priest spells are awfully expensive, seems like.

I can't find a lot of people saying they die a lot as a spriest. Just that they go OOM in record time.


Well thats part of the problem. Spriests wouldnt have to shift+heal if the passive healing was better, which makes them oom.

Priest spells have always been awfully expensive.

The point of all this is VE is manaless and "free", and needs a bit of a buff. I shift all the time now in pvp, which can get pretty expensive mana wise. Its not going to be as effective at 85, esp the use of flash heal (even after the base healing buff). It would help the mana department greatly.

And yes shadow goes oom from just a straight DPS rotation if you don't use some mana cooldowns. And if those aren't up, kinda SoL, trying to spam Death for mana its really not fun.
If you use dispersion as a mana regen tool, you just gave up one of the best survivavility cooldowns in the game. I find if i have to use it for mana, i end up needing it shortly after and die. Kinda damned if u do, damned if u dont type deal.

Look at the video, its kinda pathetic, sitting at 10% mana an entire bg. I wouldnt even wanna step into arena with that kind of regen.
Edited by Intoxiicated on 11/29/2010 12:43 PM PST
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90 Undead Priest
0
You are the one that is posting out of ignorance. VE+DP = awful heals at 85. PW:S requires mana (mana that we can hardly spare) as does dropping shadowform to heal so don't try to equate those two things to the passive healing that other classes get. Shadowpriest mana is awful at 85 and dispels destroy the paltry healing that we would even get from VE. You're just posting b/c some spriest touched you wrong in a duel.


So wait to your avarage passive costless heals you add Pws costs mana and dropping out of shadow form costs mana and heals cost mana.well no !#%@.
Would it sound balanced to you if u had infinite mana like a mage for example and u could offheal and shield without any cost.
Just troll checking you.


I seriously doubt spriests are going to be dropping form in the middle of a fight to spam Flash Heal themselves. Mana is tight at 85 already. That could easily oom an spriest in the middle of a boss fight. I imagine this scenario will be somewhat similar to the way spriests were at the beginning of Wraith.

Power Word: Shield is simply not an option. Masochism does not return mana through absorbed damage, so if an spriests shields himself, he is forgoing mana return that will be much needed at 85.


The extremely OP off healing Shadow is doing right now at 80 should not be used to view how Shadow's healing will be at 85. I do think VE is too weak. It should be changed to scale off of player life, and not damage done to target. That would basically fix that. VE will fall way, way behind this expansion if left as a damage return component, as the devs have said numerous times damage will be reigned in, and lifepools will scale much better.
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