Why are 81+ Rogue skills so bad?

58 Undead Death Knight
550
Posted this in the rogue forum but that's a dead end so I'll post it here.
*Disclaimer I haven't looked at other class skill, they could be equally as terrible in which case, make your own thread I don't care about other classes so far as this thread is concerned.

Combat Readiness: A slightly improved version of the old parry talent. Only viable use is pvp. I cannot see this being helpful in a raid situation.

Redirect: This is terrible. Once a minute rogues can be as good at switching targets as every other class in the game except that we have to use this stupid spell first. Which I guess would require that we still have these combo points up on an old target before it disappears. Only application I can see is again pvp.

Smoke Bomb Another pvp talent. This can't be useful in a raid instance. I don't see a Boss being unable to target a player just because of this talent. It's a nifty trick I guess but that's all it is. I don't see it being of any use anywhere else but in a pvp situation and even then it's situational at best.

Why don't we get anything we can use in a raid? This game too far gone up it's own esport hole it's lost sight of the actual game :/
Edited by Toothdk on 11/29/2010 8:24 PM PST
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85 Gnome Rogue
12090
Redirect actually fills an incredibly important niche for Combat because it transfers Bandit's Guile buffs across targets. That said, Combat could use some talented cooldown reduction for Redirect. It really needs to get down to ~45 seconds average case cooldown to actually be usable for the existing encounter timers at 85. Adding Redirect to Restless Blades seems like the easiest way to do this.
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90 Night Elf Druid
8280
Better than druid 81+ abilities
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58 Undead Death Knight
550
The time between pulls required to make redirect very useful is pretty bad.

But I can see it being useful on bosses that have adds so I'll recant the statement that it's bad, just lackluster and making up for a broken combat mechanic. Bandits Guile is basically Hunger for Blood 2.0.


Better than druid 81+ abilities

Your 81 ability is not bad it's got raid applications. Stampeding Roar is, meh. Hunters aspect of the pack 2.0 and your 85 skill, if those mushrooms don't explode once they are killed having only 5 hp then it's a very stupid skill otherwise it's not terrible it's just weird extra dps.
Edited by Toothdk on 11/29/2010 9:27 PM PST
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80 Troll Rogue
5625
You know how southpark had said "How do you kill that which has no life?"

How do you design interesting abilities in a class that is not interesting?

That said, my real issues with each of them.

1.) Redirect should be a passive ability that lets the rogue keep combo points on himself, screw anything else, screw bandit's guile, just let combo points stay on us.

2.) Combat readiness seems like a bandaid for evasion not working against classes that can do stuns like HoJ, and other rogues. Fix the ability, don't just invent a new one so it can be off of prep.

3.) Smokebomb is gimmicky, if too useful in PvE they will tag on something like they did with dark simulacron where bosses can ignore it, and if too useful in PvP, it'll probably have an even longer cooldown on it.

Would've much rather they had used the abilities to give us fun things than bandaids to existing problems, which two of the three are. A bandaid for evasion that wont get a double buff by being on prep, and an bandaid on target swapping.
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58 Undead Death Knight
550
I agree, combo points use to follow us back in MC/BWL before they nerfed target switching. Why not just give that back to us. It can't be THAT overpowered, it wasn't back in the day that's for sure.

Fix Bandits Guile, we're sick of these types of things. Blizzard thinks watching timers is fun, it's not. It doesn't make fights more dynamic and interesting and bs about it being a separator for good rogues vs bad rogues is complete bunk. There's so many reasons it'll just fall off anyway the only thing it will do is serve to annoy us just like Hunger for Blood annoyed us.

I honestly do not see any application for Smokebomb in PvE, it's purely an arena gimmick for esport garbage.
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85 Blood Elf Rogue
11015
Bandit's Guile = Another set of Combo Points, but with no way to dump it. Maybe make it so that you can do something interesting when it's at 3 stacks of Insight. Perhaps when you reach 3 stacks you can use Revealing Strike to consume the Insight effect and grant 100% armor penetration for x seconds. That way, good rogues can time it so that they RS right before Insight expires.

Oh, and make Bandit's Guile no longer fall off when you swap targets. Seriously, it's not funny anymore.
Edited by Skamp on 11/29/2010 9:47 PM PST
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85 Worgen Death Knight
10730
Most classes do not get widely useful PvE skills at 81+.
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27 Orc Warlock
400
Redirect should be a passive ability that lets the rogue keep combo points on himself, screw anything else, screw bandit's guile, just let combo points stay on us.


This, a hundred times this!
Especially after paladins got their Holy Power AKA simplified combo points.

And also, I remember one of the blues, I believe it was ghostcrawler, saying that rogues rely on cooldowns too much. So what do we get? MORE COOLDOWNS!!

Rogues bring next to nothing to the raid.
Stuns? better have a pally.
CC? better have just about any other class.
MD? Better have a hunter.
Cleave? Dont even have one, FoK is terrible.
Buffs/Debuffs? Each spec has one buff/debuff that can be brought by another class. And why in the world would you put Improved Expose Armor in a tree that does almost 50% of it's damage from poisons AKA spell damage??

As a raid leader I don't see a single reason to bring a rogue of any spec to the raid. It's even worse in 10 mans were it would actually hurt your group, since you could bring a class that brings more utility instead.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
Smoke Bomb is pretty cool.
Combat Readiness not so much. If anything, the should make it share CD with Evasion and buff it.
Redirect.. I hate it. I will barely use it, if ever. Useless.

Redirect makes me feel like... Here:
Assume I love playing a Arms Warrior and I hate tanking. My 81 ability is: A second taunt.
Except, in the case, even tanks are like "What?"
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90 Night Elf Rogue
16115
Parry? Are you an imbecile? This cooldown is very powerful. I can't wait to train it. Assuming they fix stealth.

Redirect should go away. Combo points on the rogue. Stupid paladins got their dumb combo points just for pressing the button- you can dodge it, they still get the CP. I used to defend combo points on the target, but it's over and done with now. It doesn't fit the model, and there's no BENEFIT to it any more. They wouldn't need to nerf anything about rogues if they let us keep combo points on ourselves. We are already the only class that actually has a stun that costs resources besides its own cooldown.

Smoke bomb looks amazing, 100%. If they break it to never work in raids, sure, then it's weaker. I'm still very excited about it, but I really like pve and pvp. Well, assuming they fix stealth.
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80 Human Rogue
4150
OK, I can think of a way to use all of these to your advantage in PVE.

Pally heals gets MC'd in a fight and starts to melee you w/ a huge damage buff, combat readiness to keep you alive until you kill him w/ 5 cps up. Smoke bomb on the tank so the boomkin that just battle rezzed the pally gets boss aggro. Vanish and redirect the cps so you can recup back to full health while rest of the party runs back.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
OK, I can think of a way to use all of these to your advantage in PVE.

Pally heals gets MC'd in a fight and starts to melee you w/ a huge damage buff, combat readiness to keep you alive until you kill him w/ 5 cps up. Smoke bomb on the tank so the boomkin that just battle rezzed the pally gets boss aggro. Vanish and redirect the cps so you can recup back to full health while rest of the party runs back.


Why Redirect?
You don't even have to be targeting anything to use Recuperate or Slice and Dice.
It's seriously useless lol.
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85 Goblin Rogue
5480
Smoke bomb is amazing and combat readiness is like evasion on steroids. Redirect is kinda ehh, but it will be good in pvp. As shadow dance I could see a 5-point focus redirect into kidney shot into shadow dance being nice. Gives you an instant 6-second stun without even targeting the guy you're kidney shotting until you're already dancing all over his face.
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80 Human Rogue
4150
OK, I can think of a way to use all of these to your advantage in PVE.

Pally heals gets MC'd in a fight and starts to melee you w/ a huge damage buff, combat readiness to keep you alive until you kill him w/ 5 cps up. Smoke bomb on the tank so the boomkin that just battle rezzed the pally gets boss aggro. Vanish and redirect the cps so you can recup back to full health while rest of the party runs back.


Why Redirect?
You don't even have to be targeting anything to use Recuperate or Slice and Dice.
It's seriously useless lol.


ya I didn't think that one out, you got a point there
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85 Orc Rogue
10440
personally i have a feeling i'll be spending 10+ gold on redirect only to never bind it to any key or even drag it out of my spellbook......
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
personally i have a feeling i'll be spending 10+ gold on redirect only to never bind it to any key or even drag it out of my spellbook......


Haha same.
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55 Dwarf Warrior
7970
Really Combat Readiness is awesome. It is potentially a 30 second shield wall, if not, then it's at least a "everyone get off of me!" button.

Similarly Smoke Bomb is pretty awesome, only its use extends to PVE. Rogues become a tanks' best friend for trickier pulls, or for grabbing those loose casters.

The only one that is of questionable value is redirect. 2 out of 3 isn't bad. And even redirect would be fine if it was a shorter cooldown.
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85 Night Elf Druid
6230
Redirect has valid uses. It just has a long cooldown.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
I think Redirect was because they were like "What else can we give rogues?". That's the only thing that came to mind.

-We don't need anymore baseline mobility. If Assassination needs it, it should be put into the tree.
-We don't need any more defensive cooldowns.
-We don't want more buttons to press.

We need more damage though, but how can that be a 81pt that isn't a new button?
Not sure. Maybe "Find Weakness" should become baseline.
81pt "Assassins Guile:<insert Find Weakness text>". Or something.
It's not like Assassination will benefit much from ArPen. Combat needs anything it can get...

Now to think of a new talent. Ah....... Hmmm.... I don't know, I've suggested many things before and rather not bring up old ideas. :|
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