Regrowth feels kind of weak

85 Tauren Druid
3855
The flash heals need to spammed when a target is taking massive damage and it's only going to continue. While this may not happen much in Cata raiding it will continue in PvP.

@ Fave, I'm not so sure we're even good with Shadowcleave anymore. If I were running Shadowcleave I would much rather take a R-Shaman over a druid. Tremor totem, Purge, and strong heals make it a much more viable option than it's R-Druid equivalent. Like you said, cyclone is a joke, our heals are prone dispells, and our main CC only applies to melee (not to mention it's easily cleansed.)

The only 3's team I've seen theorycrafted that makes sense with a R-Druid is a running double healer (likely a Shaman healer because ES provides the best dispel protection against our HoTs) with a War, Dk, Rogue (endless resource) DPS. Without a worthwhile Regrowth we're going to be doomed. Unless something is done I'll likely be taking my Paladin or hopefully leveling my Shammy fast enough to go into Cata with them.

Resto druid might find a decent niche in 5's supporting a shaman or paladin healer but any serious 3's team will be taking a good look at other healers over Druids.
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85 Blood Elf Warlock
6000
Regrowth sucks as a flash heal. Not to mention it just doesn't make sense. Why have a flash heal be a hot? They should have kept Nourish as the flash heal (taking away the silly requirement that it needs a hot on it to be halfway decent) and made regrowth the slow efficient heal. That way the spell we are supposedly to use as our go-to spell would be a hot at least. It's little things like this that drive me crazy with druid healing post-4.0. Makes me question whether I don't want to go heal on my shammy or pally instead in pve. I'm leaning towards shammy because I can go os elemental and I like ele quite a bit.
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90 Night Elf Druid
12620
Being HoT oriented used to be a flavor. Now it seems like strictly a liability. =/
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90 Tauren Shaman
8515
i totally agree with Galatea that nourish should have been our "flash heal". it provides strong evidence that Blizz just doesn't alway think things through before they make changes (i know, DUH!). and the op's point is correct, RG just isn't powerful enough for those emergency heals we sometimes need. i do have faith that Blizz will correct this if it's something that needs attention come cata raiding time. in the mean time, i'll keep playing on all 3 of my healers and enjoying the game...
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90 Worgen Druid
6550
i agree with some of what you say, but no other class has tree form, which is awesome. on my server, they're calling it treefro form lol.. anyway, you got swiftmend, ns/ht, and treefro form/instant regrowth, unlimited lb's to both save individuals and multiple folks from death. not a bad trade off in my opinion..


As I have explained, in situations with intense damage that others can spam through, druids are lacking. Rolling lifeblooms on multiple people as well as regrowths takes a lot of global cooldowns and in even applying lifeblooms preemptively it will not put out the raw single target HPS that all other healers can fill with their base quick heals. ToL is a nice cooldown, but it's not something a druid has available to use at all time and even in use it underperforms spamming flash of lights/flash heals. I don't see why ToL should be an excuse for the druids growing limited abiltity to push out on demand heals that other clases can do at any time in a battle (mana permitted) with thier quick heals. This also causes problems in both pvp and to a lesser extent tank healing (Healing Touch will probably be fine for tank healing, but it doesn't mean druids don't deserve a fast poweful heal not in the form of a cooldown). Often pre 4.0 I'd find myself needing to throw quick poweful nourishes around to prevent deaths and heavy damage taking targets, but now I feel at a loss to quickly respond to important healing through quick strong heals.


Druids are all about heals over time.

What it sounds like to me is you want your Hots along with a powerful single target heal.


I don't understand what you are getting at. Holy priests have amazing aoe heals and can go into a chacra phase to do amazing flash healing and even out of it are more effective in spamming flash heal than a druid using regrowths. Disc priests have plenty of HoTs and aoe heals along with shields they can throw all over in a raid yet have very strong flash heals that if crit are 2-3 better than the usual rergowth crit. Paladins have beacon and aoe heals (on cooldowns for the most part) and have instant casts available quite often to throw around. Shamans have chain heal, earth shield, and an aoe heal (in cata). Just because druids can throw rejuv around doesn't mean we don't deserve an equal fast powerful heal that every other healing class has. Rejuv is the only 'off cooldown' HoT that we can even spread around on a raid now! (regrowth is not strong enough to count and is part of the reason of why the up front heal is so terrible). We Aren't even suppose to be throwing rejuvs around very often anymore, we are suppose to be useing our casted heals more, but regrowth doesn't do enough on demand healing that other healers quick heals do and thus isn't as good unless the incoming damage is low. Those "HoTs" we put on people are not going to keep them from dieing when they are taking a ton of damage in pve and pvp, and are not nearly enough support healing to justify just a weak heal as regrowths (especially not for the mana). It's not worth using to try and keep people from dieing when nothing else will heal them strong enough or fast enough.
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90 Worgen Druid
6550
i agree with some of what you say, but no other class has tree form, which is awesome. on my server, they're calling it treefro form lol.. anyway, you got swiftmend, ns/ht, and treefro form/instant regrowth, unlimited lb's to both save individuals and multiple folks from death. not a bad trade off in my opinion..


Tree is nice, but you are making it out to be better than what it is. Even using regrowth on every cooldown it's not going to be noticably quicker than spam casting regrowth the heal will just be up front and not at the end of the cast. Out side of regrowth spam, life bloom spamming is not enough healing to keep people up and it takes a ton of global cooldowns to even apply stacks of lifeblooms on people. The ONLY major thing tree if really good for is proccing malfurions gift which will conserve a ton of mana during it's duration. The instant re growths can be helpful on phases of constant health drops, but when certain people are taking large chunks of damage from a mechanic regrowths are not going to cut it and the option of falling back to Healing Touch when our instants are on cooldown is unreasonable when no other class has to fall back on thier long casted heals. Tree can't be up at all time when a druid will need to do quick strong heals even if that was what it provided (which it does not imo because of how weak regrowth is).
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90 Worgen Druid
6550
i agree with some of what you say, but no other class has tree form, which is awesome. on my server, they're calling it treefro form lol.. anyway, you got swiftmend, ns/ht, and treefro form/instant regrowth, unlimited lb's to both save individuals and multiple folks from death. not a bad trade off in my opinion..


As I have explained, in situations with intense damage that others can spam through, druids are lacking. Rolling lifeblooms on multiple people as well as regrowths takes a lot of global cooldowns and in even applying lifeblooms preemptively it will not put out the raw single target HPS that all other healers can fill with their base quick heals. ToL is a nice cooldown, but it's not something a druid has available to use at all time and even in use it underperforms spamming flash of lights/flash heals. I don't see why ToL should be an excuse for the druids growing limited abiltity to push out on demand heals that other clases can do at any time in a battle (mana permitted) with thier quick heals. This also causes problems in both pvp and to a lesser extent tank healing (Healing Touch will probably be fine for tank healing, but it doesn't mean druids don't deserve a fast poweful heal not in the form of a cooldown). Often pre 4.0 I'd find myself needing to throw quick poweful nourishes around to prevent deaths and heavy damage taking targets, but now I feel at a loss to quickly respond to important healing through quick strong heals.


Druids are all about heals over time.

What it sounds like to me is you want your Hots along with a powerful single target heal.


I felt the need to reply to this once more due to how it applies even less to druids now. Druids have actually lost thier ability to keep HoTs up on people via regrowths long decent HoT and lifebloom spam at all times reguardless of tree of life form. Pre-4.0 when druids could use these extra HoTs on people they also had Nourish, which functioned just as good as other healers quick heals. Why shouldn't druids have strong single target heals when every other class does? We are not THAT great at HoT healing now and even if we were it still makes us very subpar to other healers much more reliable single target healing. Healing Touch is still good, but regrowth is so weak as our fast inefficient heal that. I'm not as concerned about tank healing as I am about raid mechanics in pve and pvp in general.
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90 Worgen Druid
6550

Druids are all about heals over time.

What it sounds like to me is you want your Hots along with a powerful single target heal.


That was Woltk - we are no longer all about heals over time.

Anyhow, as to the OP, its true that if you compare a regrowth spam to a comparable fast/inefficient heal spam, that regrowth may seem lacking. However, my hope, is that the situation where you would need to spam regrowth should not happen as often come cata. Should being the key word, assuming blizzard got things where they say they wanted them.

1 regrowth followed by a HT, or a swiftmend and then a HT should be enough to bring someone out of a danger zone and is more efficient that 2-3 regrowths in a row (since you wont be clipping hots).

If someone is low enough and taking enough damage that they cannot survive long enough for a HT after the first regrowth...then they probably got too low in the first place, and you'll have to fall back to swiftmend or NS+HT. If both those are down, then another RG is your only option. I think the key will be to avoid getting yourself into that kind of situation in the first place.

Indeed if damage is "slower" you should have the time to RG->HT/SM->Rejuv...in theory. we'll find out at 85.



As raid content becomes progressively more difficult as it always does I can assure you eventually the lack of upfront healing druids can do with regrowths will be much more apparent. Also, when we start to do hardmodes with players that repeatedely require strong heals we won't be able to compete with the other healing classes that can 'just barely' keep that person alive through flash of light spams and flash heal spams. We are forced into the role of spamming healing touch almost always and just healing non threatening damage through out the raid since we can't be relied on to bring quick powerful heals on a moments notice like every other healing class can.
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90 Worgen Druid
6550
What if Regrowth's HOT rolled/stacked?


Rolling and stacking wouldn't do much to help with druids need of a strong quick heal on demand. It would simply make it similar to lifeebloom and really only effective for tank healing since the cost of regrowth is so high and perhaps for pvp as well since we at least TRY to spam it...usually to little avail.
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90 Worgen Druid
6550
What if Regrowth's HOT rolled/stacked?


Eh - in the scenario of low health, short on time, regrowth spam, if the hot rolled the hot isn't going to get a chance to tick anyhow (because we are spamming), at least not till after we've stopped spamming. In which case the target is no longer in danger.

It'd be nice, in terms of not losing all the clipped hot healing..but wouldn't help the direct heal portion actually keep the target alive.

It still comes down to don't get into a situation where RG->HT is too slow. If it is, RG->SM or RG->NS+HT are your best bets, if both are down, well you better hope the direct heal portion of RG->RG is enough, or that your healing partner managed to squeeze a heal in there or a smart heal bounced in to assist.


Current hardmodes in ICC force this situation on druid raid healers often enough with mechanics and I highly doubt it won't be present in either later cata raid content and especially in cata heroic raid content. Also, the situation is going to be present very, very often in most pvp no matter how you play your cards.
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90 Worgen Druid
6550
Eh - in the scenario of low health, short on time, regrowth spam, if the hot rolled the hot isn't going to get a chance to tick anyhow (because we are spamming), at least not till after we've stopped spamming. In which case the target is no longer in danger.

It'd be nice, in terms of not losing all the clipped hot healing..but wouldn't help the direct heal portion actually keep the target alive.

It still comes down to don't get into a situation where RG->HT is too slow. If it is, RG->SM or RG->NS+HT are your best bets, if both are down, well you better hope the direct heal portion of RG->RG is enough, or that your healing partner managed to squeeze a heal in there or a smart heal bounced in to assist.

I got the impression that the concern here was more about the loss of overall healing rather than focusing solely on the up-front portion. But in either case, a rolling HOT means you can actually afford to stop Regrowthing sooner.

If, say, the tank is getting whacked hard by the boss, what would have perhaps required four or five Regrowths, might only take three because you can fall back on some HTs knowing you're about to get some beefy HOT ticks over the next few seconds.

I forgot to add that with the way HOTs work now, you don't lose tick time even when refreshing the duration.



It's true that you don't lose ticks and that stacking on regrowths would be very helpful in some situations, but it really is more about the upfront heal than anything else. Honestly, regrowth can do similar healing if not more healing than other classes quick inefficient heal, but only once the HoT has finished and the living seed proc has been consumed. Other healers don't have to wait for the full effect of their heal and they wouldn't life it if they did have to since the REASON it's used at all is because they need a strong heal as fast as possible.
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90 Worgen Druid
6550

I got the impression that the concern here was more about the loss of overall healing rather than focusing solely on the up-front portion. But in either case, a rolling HOT means you can actually afford to stop Regrowthing sooner.

If, say, the tank is getting whacked hard by the boss, what would have perhaps required four or five Regrowths, might only take three because you can fall back on some HTs knowing you're about to get some beefy HOT ticks over the next few seconds.


Regrowth ticks are anything but beefy..even say a triple stack. If I had enough time to cast 3 regrowth's, then its possible I also had enough time to have cast RG->HT->SM instead (for more healing) - or RG->HT,and be mid cast with a 2nd HT.

Besides, i saw this less as a healing the tank issue and more of healing a dps who dropped to say 10% health cause running out of fire is hard and there is a raid wide aoe coming in 4 secs that hits for 30% health. 2 Flash of lights back to back are probably enough (these are made up numbers but you get the idea). 2 Direct heals from RG probably aren't.
So i was telling the OP to not think about using RG in that way. RG+HT or RG+SM or NS+HT etc are better solutions than to try and make RG a better spam-able flash heal like those of other classes. RG is fast but not that large. Its great for a moderate direct heal up front and setting up mastery bonus for future heals, but its not that great to spam on itself in the same way other flash heals can be used.

Don't get me wrong, who wouldn't love the hot to be stackable/rollable, but it doesn't really address the main issue and its not gonna happen :)


This is exactly the problem with the spell, and although it can be avoided with using istant heals like SM and NS healing touch, it's not enough to justify how weak it is. Once those are used there is nothing left for the druid to use to keep that person alive except regrowth spam or the better long casted Healing Touch spam. I'm less concerned about dps that stand in fire and more conerned about unavoidable boss mechanics that will force the healers to keep key members from dieing or to at least heal people with their strongest heal to keep the from dieing...and that would be healing touch since regrowth is so weak. Other healers can just throw out thier fast inefficient heals for a nice large heal, while druids are sweating to try and get Healing Touch casts off in time.
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90 Worgen Druid
6550
Compared to all the other "flash heals" Regrowth is very weak, and more expensive. At first it made sense, since it proc'd efflo. Now, I just don't get it, even with mastery and an extra tick from haste its still weak when compared to the others.

I did a comparison the other day on a priest and a druid, both with very similar spellpower. The druid's regrowth with mastery, extra tick, and base heal + hot portion all critting it healed for roughly 12k total, compared to a priest's 12.2k noncrit flash heal (18k crit), not including priest mastery.


This is what's wrong with the heal. Also a druid can't depend on mastery to help with thier healing since we might not even have time to even pre HoT a person before we must get a heal off on them (chances are we will be able to pre rejuv and hopefully SM, but if it has to be healed fast than it has to be healed fast and SM isn't always up since it's often used for efflorescence and tank heals).
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90 Worgen Druid
6550
Living seed only adds another 2.5k to a crit at best. The state of Regrowth particularly concerns me in pvp. We're already having trouble keeping people up through strong bursts with Regrowth/Living Seed. Once we hit Shaman/Mage teams with spammable dispells we're going to be forced to rely upon a half "flash heal" with a horrid HoT.

I don't have a problem being forced to cast in PvP, especially adapting to different comps with spammable dispells. I do have a problem with being doomed against Shammans/Mages because the only quick heal I have that isn't a HoT to fall back upon is half as strong as everybody elses.


I can only imagine how much of a slao in the face it is to druids to be better off using Healing touch than thier quick heal because of how terrible the upfront heal is. Our HoTs aren't as reliable since we can't even use anything BUT rejuv on people in most cases and then there is no dispell resistance mechanic anymore and no magor penalty for simply spam dispelling a druids heal target and killing it. The blooms from 1 stack lifeblooms being dispelled will not keep your target from dieing and when you fall back on direct healing to save them regrowths low healing won't help very much and taking the time to get Healing Touches off is unrealistic and just asking to be interrupted and locked out of healing.
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90 Worgen Druid
6550
Yeah i hadn't taken pvp into consideration. In that scenario where u want fast heals to avoid interrupts, yeah it kinda blows chunks...glad i don't pvp


Well some druids do and unreliability of regrowth, especially with HoT dispelling, is going to make pvp rather aggrivating for them unless damage is severely nerfed and the need for quick healing lessened (very unlikely).
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90 Worgen Druid
6550
It's a problem for pvp but honestly at this point I'm resigned that S9 will be S5 all over again. It's my Pally for pvp healing at this point and my War.

We're horrible on more than 1 target taking damage, extremely vulnerable to dispels, have a wimpy flash heal and our only direct healing instant is a 13 second CD. Oh, and our healing CD is banishable still (unless this changed), and in BGs LoS is not always a viable option. The only thing we have going for us right now is travel form and instant roots. Cyclone is barely usable because of 0 pushback resistance and anyone bright will train us.

This is all for 85, of course. We're decent in 3v3s with the right comp but anything beyond that we're crap, which is what I've been saying for over two months now.


Agreed, there are many other problems than just the Weak state and high mana cost of Regrowth for resto druid pvp, but this is definately one of the biggest.
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90 Worgen Druid
6550
I could be wrong, but I'm like 85% sure the Flash type heals aren't meant to be spammed whatsoever, just cast once to QUICKLY get someone into a safe zone for you to cast more efficient heals. But I guess if for some reason they need multiple flash heals then yeah I can see it hurting there a bit.


Yes, a paladin doesn't want to use flash heal very often, he wants to use more efficient heals, but that doesn't matter when he NEEDS to get off multiple flash heals because of a mechanic that requires quick and strong healing to prevent a death or a wipe. The best current example I can think of for this to make it more clear is Heroic saurfang; a paladin will most likely be spamming flash heals on a mark and his beacon healing another mark or pehaps one of those is a tank, but either way by the end of the fight (especially pre 30% buff: Edit: pre 30% was before 4.0 and the paladin would have been spamming Holy Light since flash heal wasn't affected by beacon then, but my point still stands) he will feel the need to spam flash heal quite often to keep a mark or the tank from dieing. If he can't keep them from dieing than it's very likely that the entire group will now wipe due to his inability to heal large chunks of incoming damage fast. A druids in comparison can throw HoTs on them, but they are taking massive damage ticks and require casted healing. Regrowth however doesn't push out enough and either the mark dies due to the lack of healing or the druid tries to spam Healing Touch. Chances are they will fail to properly keep multiple marks alive for very long that another healer would have been able to through flash heal, flash of lights, and surge heals. The druid can prolong it through cooldowns like tranquility, NS, and SM, but eventually it becomes apparent that he us just circumventing a weak healing mechanic of his class that other healers simply do not have to.
Edited by Stratis on 12/1/2010 9:14 PM PST
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85 Undead Death Knight
PfB
2285
I have been pvp'ing on my death knight for the past week or so to see what it is like from the other side, and it is painfully easy to interrupt druids casting regrowth. Healing Touch is just laughably easy to interrupt. In most cases, druids either shift into tree (and unless I silence them with strangulate, they are unkillable for the duration) or die as soon as they start trying to cast regrowth. The hots aren't enough to keep them up.

It makes me sad :( Locking out nature by interrupting regrowth is all too easy with pushback from my swings and my ghoul.
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90 Worgen Druid
6550
The flash heals need to spammed when a target is taking massive damage and it's only going to continue. While this may not happen much in Cata raiding it will continue in PvP.

@ Fave, I'm not so sure we're even good with Shadowcleave anymore. If I were running Shadowcleave I would much rather take a R-Shaman over a druid. Tremor totem, Purge, and strong heals make it a much more viable option than it's R-Druid equivalent. Like you said, cyclone is a joke, our heals are prone dispells, and our main CC only applies to melee (not to mention it's easily cleansed.)

The only 3's team I've seen theorycrafted that makes sense with a R-Druid is a running double healer (likely a Shaman healer because ES provides the best dispel protection against our HoTs) with a War, Dk, Rogue (endless resource) DPS. Without a worthwhile Regrowth we're going to be doomed. Unless something is done I'll likely be taking my Paladin or hopefully leveling my Shammy fast enough to go into Cata with them.

Resto druid might find a decent niche in 5's supporting a shaman or paladin healer but any serious 3's team will be taking a good look at other healers over Druids.



This is part of why I'm so concerned about druids. Nourish was what we needed to get so many jobs done in the past in both pve and pvp, but replacing it with this form of regrowth is a joke. Druids will only be competative and reliable as other heals with this form of regrowth if there is not situations that call for quick intense healing and it's very impracticale to think this game will ever take that kind of form with out a overhaul much more massive than anything cata is bringing. I really think this is something more druids should be showing concern over and think back about how useful nourish was and how much of a burden it is to not have powerful quickly casted heals that every other healer has at thier disposal.
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90 Night Elf Druid
11845
I have been pvp'ing on my death knight for the past week or so to see what it is like from the other side, and it is painfully easy to interrupt druids casting regrowth. Healing Touch is just laughably easy to interrupt. In most cases, druids either shift into tree (and unless I silence them with strangulate, they are unkillable for the duration) or die as soon as they start trying to cast regrowth. The hots aren't enough to keep them up.

It makes me sad :( Locking out nature by interrupting regrowth is all too easy with pushback from my swings and my ghoul.


If you're talking about live duels, it's not terribly relevant. Outside of running oom, it's nearly impossible to kill me as resto atm so if you're downing resto druids that easily 1v1 they're just terrible. And doesn't have anything to do with the class.

The problems only really become relevant in team environments or at 85 when hot throughput is incredibly low.
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