The Problem With Absorbs.

90 Orc Warrior
18685
Hey everyone, I just wanted to comment on a problem i've been noticing for a while now within the raiding community. Absorbs. When discussing healer throughput, you've got 2 kinds of people; those that care about healing meters and those that don't.

Some say that the metric of a good healer is how much raw, effective healing they can put out, and others say if everyone was alive at the end of the fight, healing is fine and doesn't need to improve.

I fall into the first group, but I try not to get caught up in healing meters because I know they are unbalanced, (and by unbalanced I mean some classes are consistently miles ahead of others) and I am growing more convinced that they are intended not to be 'balanced'. But wait, why would blizzard intentionally design healers to be unbalanced?

My suspicion is that aside from having 'niches', blizzard doesn't count 1 point of absorption as 1 point of healing (the way healing meters do now). In my opinion, 1 point of absorption is worth more than 1 point of healing, since you never take the damage to begin with and don't need time (which is one of the components of HPS) to heal back the damage.

So basically if a druid anticipates big raid damage coming and applies rejuvs ahead of time, and then a disc priest blankets the whole raid in spirit shells and power word shields before the damage goes out, it makes the druid look bad on the meters (and if their raid leader only cares about throughput, could risk their raid spot) even though he or she did exactly what he or she was supposed to do. So if i were designing the game, I would put disc priest and holy paladins' maximum theoretical throughput of combined healing and absorbs slightly lower than druids' (random example healer with no absorbs) since the druid relies on time after the damage is taken to heal back the damage, thus providing a chance to overheal, which as we all know doesn't count as effective healing.

on the order of disc priest's heal+divine aegis totals to 95 (60 heal +35 absorb or whatever ratio) and druid's single target heal heals for 100. these are made up pretend numbers, but the spirit of my design is that since raw healing isn't as potent as absorbs, absorbs should cost more time and energy to apply the same amount.

Fight mechanics currently, and always will favor absorbs over raw healing. It's just the nature of the game. So as long as 1 point of absorb=1 point of healing on recount/skada/world of logs, disc will always seem overpowered and people will whine.

So the solutions are:

  • either to split healing and absorbs on healing meters (which every disc priest used to hate),
  • nerf absorbs across the board (which every disc priest and paladin will hate)
  • or my solution, have blizzard tell us what ratio they are balancing heals to absorbs. this way you can program your addon to take that ratio into account when printing hps numbers so everyone knows exactly what their total throughput is without blaming their class or someone else's class.
  • Reply Quote
    Discounting the time to apply aborbs aside, if you looked at relative healer output in 10 mans during progression, Disc was already behind other healers. Even in 25man with broken-as-hell level 90 talents, if you look at burst healing windows, throughput healers were able to do comparable-to-slightly-more healing. Part of the problem is that healer output relative to the damage in Heroic SoO is overpowered, another part is the damage patterns on many fights include too many low-to-no damage phases which allow disc and pallies to build up blanket absorbs.

    And of course, as content becomes farm, absorbs do more and more of the healing, leading to mass riots and the like.

    In terms of proactive healing, absorbs are perhaps the least interesting, passively applied ones doubly so. As long as it's possible for some healers to blanket the raid in absorbs, other healers will qq about it.
    Edited by Evry on 1/22/2014 3:11 PM PST
    Reply Quote
    90 Pandaren Monk
    15705
    01/22/2014 03:03 PMPosted by Evry
    if you looked at relative healer output in 10 mans during progression, Disc was already behind other healers


    Yea, MW/Resto druids were kings of 10 man until disc got 2pc and some SoO gear.
    Reply Quote
    90 Undead Monk
    13535
    01/22/2014 03:03 PMPosted by Evry
    Part of the problem is that healer output relative to the damage in Heroic SoO is overpowered, another part is the damage patterns on many fights include too many low-to-no damage phases which allow disc and pallies to build up blanket absorbs.


    Yerp.
    Reply Quote
    90 Human Priest
    16665
    I would put disc priest and holy paladins' maximum theoretical throughput of combined healing and absorbs slightly lower than druids' (random example healer with no absorbs) since the druid relies on time after the damage is taken to heal back the damage, thus providing a chance to overheal, which as we all know doesn't count as effective healing.

    This is already the case. Disc is dead last in theoretical throughput. Encounters are not designed around highest possible output or they would be unbeatable.
    Reply Quote
    90 Night Elf Druid
    13700
    01/22/2014 03:03 PMPosted by Evry
    Part of the problem is that healer output relative to the damage in Heroic SoO is overpowered, another part is the damage patterns on many fights include too many low-to-no damage phases which allow disc and pallies to build up blanket absorbs.


    I think this is the largest culprit, combined with passivity. It's so... predictable and mindless. The scheduled cooldowns, exactly the same, every time. The periods of doing nothing akin to the regen breaks of vanilla.

    For you OP, a blog to enjoy: http://lifeingroup5.com/?p=3686
    Reply Quote
    90 Orc Warrior
    18685
    01/22/2014 03:19 PMPosted by Twistedmind
    I would put disc priest and holy paladins' maximum theoretical throughput of combined healing and absorbs slightly lower than druids' (random example healer with no absorbs) since the druid relies on time after the damage is taken to heal back the damage, thus providing a chance to overheal, which as we all know doesn't count as effective healing.

    This is already the case. Disc is dead last in theoretical throughput. Encounters are not designed around highest possible output or they would be unbeatable.


    I haven't seen the math that confirms what you're saying, but that's because i've mainly dpsed this expansion. Assuming you are correct, which i will do, it just means that the difference in maximum theoretical throughput is too small then. If absorbs are this dominant, (which i believe they are) there should be more of a difference between their maximum throughput since absorbs are always ahead these days.

    To address what the above poster said: I am really only concerned with 25 man raiding so any balance issues in 10 man aren't important to me. Balancing 2 difficulties is a silly idea (and one that blizzard is abandoning) so i'll only worry about how 25 man healers are balanced among each other.

    I don't see where you guys are saying disc only became good on farm content.

    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/25H/all/14/180/default/#0000000000000000000000000000111111

    shows that as people learned the encounters, (and when to blanket the raid with absorbs) disc got better and better until it was clearly dominant over the others. Paladins seem to be pretty well middle of the pack though, so that gives me hope that it's possible to balance everyone.

    Although I would still prefer if it was clear how much absorption vs. healing were meant to compare to each other within raw throughput models.
    Reply Quote
    it just means that the difference in maximum theoretical throughput is too small then. If absorbs are this dominant, (which i believe they are) there should be more of a difference between their maximum throughput since absorbs are always ahead these days.


    The difference in maximum Theoretical throughput is quite large. However, as what was said above, the raid encounters do not have that kind of damage. It doesn't matter if they up it more, a throughput healer is only going to heal what is left over after absorbs.
    Reply Quote
    01/22/2014 03:30 PMPosted by Eranthey
    it just means that the difference in maximum theoretical throughput is too small then.

    It more likely means the required throughput is well below the theoretical throughput of the lowest healer.

    You can't ignore the 10 vs 25 healer balance since it's a different picture in each. In 5.4 they removed AoE heal DR and changed them to limited target smart heals. Except for Divine Star and Halo, which now do full healing to everyone they hit in either raid size, effectively making them much stronger in 25 man raids.

    ex: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/10H/all/14/180/default/#0000000000000000000000000000111111

    where disc is in a reasonable place with holy pallies. If DS and Halo didn't scale so absurdly with raid size, it would be a different picture in 25.
    Reply Quote
    90 Orc Warrior
    18685
    01/22/2014 03:42 PMPosted by Oregano
    it just means that the difference in maximum theoretical throughput is too small then. If absorbs are this dominant, (which i believe they are) there should be more of a difference between their maximum throughput since absorbs are always ahead these days.


    The difference in maximum Theoretical throughput is quite large. However, as what was said above, the raid encounters do not have that kind of damage. It doesn't matter if they up it more, a throughput healer is only going to heal what is left over after absorbs.


    The amount of throughput healers are capable of and the damage that goes on in raids are, for all intents and purposes, two means to the same end, skillfull decision-making and prior preparation.

    If healers aren't challenged because they heal for (read: absorb) WAY more damage than actually ever happens within raids, you have 2 very simple way to fix it. Reduce total healing relative to raid damage (which will make actual healing more attractive since you can't absorb so much of the damage), or increase the encounters' damage output relative to total healing. Either way results in the same thing. Healers have to use more of their resources (time, mana) to heal for the same amount, which results in more engaging raids with less periodic blanketing of heals.
    Edited by Eranthey on 1/22/2014 3:51 PM PST
    Reply Quote
    90 Orc Warrior
    18685
    01/22/2014 03:42 PMPosted by Evry
    it just means that the difference in maximum theoretical throughput is too small then.

    It more likely means the required throughput is well below the theoretical throughput of the lowest healer.


    yeah that makes sense.
    Reply Quote
    If healers aren't challenged because they heal for (read: absorb) WAY more damage than actually ever happens within raids, you have 2 very simple way to fix it. Reduce total healing relative to raid damage (which will make actual healing more attractive since you can't absorb so much of the damage), or increase the encounters' damage output relative to total healing. Either way results in the same thing. Healers have to use more of their resources (time, mana) to heal for the same amount, which results in more engaging raids with less periodic blanketing of heals.


    I would agree, however it has to be balanced around healers that are just geared enough. What we are seeing now, are people that are geared much higher than those from the beginning of the tier and if they balanced for that no one would be able to get the first boss down. ;) The difference of a player, dps or healer at item level 530 has no way of competing with an equally competent 560.

    Though there are some fights that could of been higher, imo. They are now just boring.
    Reply Quote
    90 Worgen Priest
    12380
    01/22/2014 03:27 PMPosted by Bunny
    For you OP, a blog to enjoy: http://lifeingroup5.com/?p=3686

    A most enjoyable read; thank you! It also hits right on the mark; absorb healers seem much more capable because they get to accumulate all the healing done during the relaxed portions of a fight, which is the majority of most fights in SoO.

    01/22/2014 03:30 PMPosted by Eranthey
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/25H/all/14/180/default/#0000000000000000000000000000111111

    If absorbs themselves were the problem, then Holy Paladins would be right up there with Discipline Priests. They aren't because the problem is mostly to do with the lack of DR on Halo and Divine Star. Evry hit it right on the head,

    01/22/2014 03:42 PMPosted by Evry
    If DS and Halo didn't scale so absurdly with raid size, it would be a different picture in 25.
    Edited by Myllior on 1/22/2014 5:16 PM PST
    Reply Quote
    90 Pandaren Monk
    15705
    absorbs are fine, if the raid damage isn't 20% bursty raid damage (which is good for absorbs) and 80% lol random damage (Which is good for atonement)
    Reply Quote
    90 Blood Elf Death Knight
    14300
    01/22/2014 03:19 PMPosted by Twistedmind
    I would put disc priest and holy paladins' maximum theoretical throughput of combined healing and absorbs slightly lower than druids' (random example healer with no absorbs) since the druid relies on time after the damage is taken to heal back the damage, thus providing a chance to overheal, which as we all know doesn't count as effective healing.

    This is already the case. Disc is dead last in theoretical throughput. Encounters are not designed around highest possible output or they would be unbeatable.


    In 25m, disc is not dead last in theoretical throughput. Paladins are. All thanks to the level 90 talents mentioned.
    Edited by Desrea on 1/22/2014 6:21 PM PST
    Reply Quote
    90 Tauren Druid
    11310
    Absorbs should be initially empty shields that last for a number of seconds to be filled up by throughput healing.

    *Looks around shiftily.*
    Reply Quote
    90 Pandaren Monk
    10215
    I just feel that to balance all healing class, Bliz can make all healing class can give absorption.
    Reply Quote
    90 Blood Elf Priest
    12655
    01/22/2014 03:27 PMPosted by Bunny
    Part of the problem is that healer output relative to the damage in Heroic SoO is overpowered, another part is the damage patterns on many fights include too many low-to-no damage phases which allow disc and pallies to build up blanket absorbs.


    I think this is the largest culprit, combined with passivity. It's so... predictable and mindless. The scheduled cooldowns, exactly the same, every time. The periods of doing nothing akin to the regen breaks of vanilla.

    For you OP, a blog to enjoy: http://lifeingroup5.com/?p=3686


    Thanks for that link. Very good read. I agree with the blog. I hope triage comes back =).
    Reply Quote
    90 Undead Monk
    13535
    01/22/2014 09:17 PMPosted by Xingling
    I just feel that to balance all healing class, Bliz can make all healing class can give absorption.


    No thanks.

    Disc should have absorbs, but just from PWS and SS. The rest needs to be taken away.

    Same with paladin mastery.
    Reply Quote
    90 Night Elf Druid
    13700
    I do think it would be nice if some different mastery was developed for Paladins particularly. It just seems like a cut and paste effect from Disc. :<
    Reply Quote

    Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

    Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

    Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

    Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

    Forums Code of Conduct

    Report Post # written by

    Reason
    Explain (256 characters max)
    Submit Cancel

    Reported!

    [Close]