The Problem With Absorbs.

100 Draenei Priest
19715
01/22/2014 03:03 PMPosted by Evry
Even in 25man with broken-as-hell level 90 talents, if you look at burst healing windows, throughput healers were able to do comparable-to-slightly-more healing.


This is part of the problem right here, at their strongest w/ cooldowns the throughput healers are only able to do "comparable-to-slightly-more" healing. Considering the state of disc priests, the reactive throughput healing we should be able to do as a class should be in the basement. If disc priests mistime a Spirit Shell, then we should be getting demolished by every other healer during these burst healing windows. But because of Divine Star, that is still not the case.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
15855
01/23/2014 04:55 PMPosted by Meioh
Even in 25man with broken-as-hell level 90 talents, if you look at burst healing windows, throughput healers were able to do comparable-to-slightly-more healing.


This is part of the problem right here, at their strongest w/ cooldowns the throughput healers are only able to do "comparable-to-slightly-more" healing. Considering the state of disc priests, the reactive throughput healing we should be able to do as a class should be in the basement. If disc priests mistime a Spirit Shell, then we should be getting demolished by every other healer during these burst healing windows. But because of Divine Star, that is still not the case.


This is true enough. The idea though that minus absorbs most healers hover around the same output is nice balance. What is bad is that there isn't enough damage in the raids to make it show on meters.
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90 Orc Warlock
4495
Or they could do what I've seen in other games and just mess with how long an absorb lasts. If the crit proc absorb for disc priest (I'm leveling one and I keep forgetting what it's called, sorry) only lasted for say 5seconds and most absorbs were designed to only last 3-10 seconds then they would be harder to blanket and could potentially come into play as what they theoretically are: not just heals, but increasers of maximum health. And maybe it doesn't count since the effect basically just procs once on heal and then presumably is kept up in a raid, but would ancestral blessing or whatever that shaman's have which increases hp based upon amount healed be sorta like an absorb?
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1 Pandaren Shaman
0
The problem with these types of threads is they presume there is something inherently overpowered about absorbs. This isn't the case. Much of the problem isn't with absorbs to begin with. It's with spec/class balance in general, encounter design/damage patterns, resource management, stat inflation and a number of other areas, many of which were touched on in the blog linked by Bunny.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
01/24/2014 04:23 AMPosted by Viseo
This isn't the case. Much of the problem isn't with absorbs to begin with. It's with spec/class balance in general,


How though do you balance healing classes when two can negate damage before it is applied to health pools? It will always be messed up until they get that fixed. Couple that with most of the absorbs being completely passive, it makes it even harder to attempt to balance.

I do think a lot of it has to do with encounter design but not sure what their formula is for damage vs healing requirement when they make them. Also adding in different healing comps adds a whole new level to the issue of balancing, I don't envy them.

Personally i have a bigger problem with damage conversion to heal. But that is for another thread.
Edited by Harpoa on 1/24/2014 5:51 AM PST
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90 Undead Priest
9530
01/24/2014 05:49 AMPosted by Harpoa
Personally i have a bigger problem with damage conversion to heal. But that is for another thread.


I knew that would come up sooner or later. As a user I have to admit that it is rather an odd combination but hey I'm not going to stop doing it until they take it away.
Edited by Ryac on 1/24/2014 9:00 AM PST
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100 Blood Elf Monk
17900
As a healer point of view, unless you are a disc priest or holy paladin, absorbs are making you look bad on the meter.

As a raid leader point of view, you want as many absorbs as you can because it causes less stress of seeing player health go down and stabilize some encounters.

Problem is not absorbs, it's the fact that many healer care about themselves and not the overall raid, and the obvious "why pick me instead of a disc priest?"
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100 Blood Elf Priest
15855
Really just removing DA from atonement makes disc a lot less powerful. Well "overpowered." There are 2 main culprits of DA from disc atm and those are from atonement and 90 talents. On occasion PoH/Penance. Its quite similar to how 100% chance DA had to be removed from PoH.

Considering disc atm spends a lot of time in smite mode. There would be a lot less shields going out. They would still be sniping on regular heals but that's ok imo. I would really like for there to be more reason for disc to move away from atonement. I liked when it was viable but not our go to spell.

Really disc isn't stronger than the other healers. Like I mentioned above posts. Its the lack of damage going out and predictable bursts, which disc excels at, that make them appear so much better.

Spirit shell and PW;S are ok. The problem is DA and always has been DA. Its uncontrollable (excluding ridiculous crit levels) The question is. How do you make DA good w/o making it bad? If you remove it entirely. Disc is really meh and if it is too hard to pump out. You're relying on poor healing outside of 90 talents. Lets be real the 90 talents are only super strong right now because of DA generation. The 90 talents are good in their current incarnation but, I don't think they're *that* good.

If triage were to come back (it wont *cry*) but if it were. Disc would not feel like it does now. It would give a lot more room for the other healers and disc would do what its intended to do. Create a buffer and they would not have to change much about disc's current state.
Edited by Nametwenty on 1/24/2014 5:07 PM PST
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100 Draenei Priest
8785
Really the best option is to remove DA and think of what to do from there. Think about what will happen in WoD at level 100 with the current DA. If that seems hard imagine how silly the current DA would have been in t14. Even if it wasn't underpowered, it wouldn't feel or play well at all. When you can get in the range of 40% crit (buffed) it seems less random and rng-dependent. Pre-empt the tears, short-sighed buffs, and later nerfs that are prevalent with double-dipping mechanics, especially rng ones.
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1 Pandaren Shaman
0
01/24/2014 05:05 PMPosted by Nametwenty
There are 2 main culprits of DA from disc atm and those are from atonement and 90 talents. On occasion PoH/Penance. Its quite similar to how 100% chance DA had to be removed from PoH.


This area has a great deal to do with stat values and gear inflation. More specifically it has to do with critical strike. DA contributions aren't a huge deal when we're talking 10-15% critical chance. The story changes when we're looking at 30-40% critical chance. It leads to ridiculous play becoming "the norm".

100% DA on PoH is a prime example of this fact. At some points when it was still around "good play" consisted of bombing PoH all over the place for limited healing just to abuse the DA contributions. Of course, this could have been fixed by lowering the guaranteed or overall DA percentage instead of outright removing the guarantee. DA being tied to critical strike can lead to similar problems. But... it's a unique concept so it gets a pass apparently.

In terms of Atonement... Yeah, that 40 yard range bit has been ridiculous since it was introduced. 15 or 20 yards was and would have been fine. 40 yards made it entirely too idiot proof. Atonement also should have kept to the trade-off concept, where it was less efficient and potent during the "right now" to provide more efficiency and potency later on down the road. Perhaps in a sense it still is right now. But the gap should be larger. Stripping DA from Atonement based abilities might be an elegant fix to that. Hell, strip it from everything but single-target direct heals and PoH while you're at it.
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90 Night Elf Priest
5905
What if shields only absorbed a percentage of the hit no matter how strong the shield is? Say 100 hp hit, shield absorbs 50 hp and the rest damages the player. (Just spitballing numbers and percentages here.)
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90 Night Elf Warrior
5645
01/24/2014 09:58 AMPosted by Karuzo
Problem is not absorbs, it's the fact that many healer care about themselves and not the overall raid, and the obvious "why pick me instead of a disc priest?"


Most healers would rather be beaten on meters due to their co-healers being more skillful than them instead of class imbalance.

Since most of the time the phrase "healing meters don't matter" seems to pop up - does that mean even if suddenly absorb healers like Disc were nerfed and ended up dead last on HPS meters - would people still be fine with the imbalance?
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90 Orc Shaman
12885
01/24/2014 06:36 PMPosted by Echoi
What if shields only absorbed a percentage of the hit no matter how strong the shield is? Say 100 hp hit, shield absorbs 50 hp and the rest damages the player. (Just spitballing numbers and percentages here.)

That is an idea that has been thrown around a lot lately and I'd like to see the devs consider it for the beta testing at least. 50% might still be a bit high absorb amount and personally I'd rather see something around 33.33(repeating ofc)% of the shield consumed maximum per hit. It is a sketchy idea, though, as it risks making absorbs weak against single burst mechanics although in exchange they'd become great buffers against sustained damage. And tbh, that sounds kinda like how HoTs are :x
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90 Blood Elf Priest
8025
Just going to say one thing: absorbs will only put a disc at the top of a chart when there isn't a lot of damage to heal up. Go do heroic Iron Juggernaut and see which of your healers gets you through phase 2's. (it's not the discs)
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100 Human Priest
18300
Problem with absorbs is that people care about the healing meters.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
10105
Based on some of the info here isn't the culprit really the design of the encounters? Much like Druids were so strong with all the fights that had continuous damage auras during Wrath it seems the predictable nature of Boss burst damage mechanics makes Disc seem far better than it would be if said damage was more randomized.

Being able to blanket a Raid with Absorbs in anticipation of a big damage spike predicted by DBM would be a lot harder if those attacks were randomized. Hopefully that's something Blizzard can do in WoD. Have some mechanics work on a predictable timer like the Boss reaching 100 Energy/Power and have others be totally random.
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90 Night Elf Druid
9210
01/25/2014 06:50 AMPosted by Indyana
Based on some of the info here isn't the culprit really the design of the encounters? Much like Druids were so strong with all the fights that had continuous damage auras during Wrath it seems the predictable nature of Boss burst damage mechanics makes Disc seem far better than it would be if said damage was more randomized.

Being able to blanket a Raid with Absorbs in anticipation of a big damage spike predicted by DBM would be a lot harder if those attacks were randomized. Hopefully that's something Blizzard can do in WoD. Have some mechanics work on a predictable timer like the Boss reaching 100 Energy/Power and have others be totally random.

obviously every future encounter should be designed to accommodate Disc, instead of just fixing Disc
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100 Blood Elf Priest
15855
01/25/2014 11:55 AMPosted by Rexoss
01/25/2014 06:50 AMPosted by Indyana
Based on some of the info here isn't the culprit really the design of the encounters? Much like Druids were so strong with all the fights that had continuous damage auras during Wrath it seems the predictable nature of Boss burst damage mechanics makes Disc seem far better than it would be if said damage was more randomized.

Being able to blanket a Raid with Absorbs in anticipation of a big damage spike predicted by DBM would be a lot harder if those attacks were randomized. Hopefully that's something Blizzard can do in WoD. Have some mechanics work on a predictable timer like the Boss reaching 100 Energy/Power and have others be totally random.

obviously every future encounter should be designed to accommodate Disc, instead of just fixing Disc


Implying disc is actually broken. When it really isn't. We may be stupidly scaled with crit atm but its not a class issue its a stat/encounter issue.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14970
01/24/2014 06:36 PMPosted by Echoi
What if shields only absorbed a percentage of the hit no matter how strong the shield is? Say 100 hp hit, shield absorbs 50 hp and the rest damages the player. (Just spitballing numbers and percentages here.)


The issue I have with this is that healers seek consistency. In this scenario, healers would have to figure out the average hits beforehand to have any idea of how their healing was going to do. And even then, they wouldn't be able to account for every single hit in most cases, which would make the entire thing feel like guesstimating. So how, then, do you weigh the relative values of Haste, Crit, and Mastery in such a scenario? It would, in my opinion, be very hard for the average player to wrap their minds around the whole thing, and make things feel...undependable.
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90 Pandaren Monk
8410
01/25/2014 05:03 PMPosted by Nametwenty
Implying disc is actually broken. When it really isn't. We may be stupidly scaled with crit atm but its not a class issue its a stat/encounter issue.


Disc has a number of problems that sort of make it superior. Crit scaling is a big factor, but it's not just that. It's the level 90 talents not having a cap when all other AoE-style heals do, the added damage-to-smart-heal mechanic of Atonement, and just the inherent nature of absorbs.
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