The Problem With Absorbs.

100 Orc Shaman
HC
18655
As long as disc priest deal significantly less damage, that's all that really matters. So what if they're absorbing the miniscule damage right now? Cap the 90 talents, reduce atonement damage by a significant amount and done.

My only real gripe with disc is the fact it has too much versatility. It can do all it can do, while putting out a massive amount of damage which simply pushes it too far ahead for 10m and the 90 talents having no cap push it too far ahead in 25m. Everything else is eh. I'm fine with MW doing the amount of damage they do because it's all they bring, while disc brings everything you ever would need and then that same damage.
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100 Troll Priest
22770
01/26/2014 09:13 AMPosted by Sensations
As long as disc priest deal significantly less damage, that's all that really matters. So what if they're absorbing the miniscule damage right now? Cap the 90 talents, reduce atonement damage by a significant amount and done.

My only real gripe with disc is the fact it has too much versatility. It can do all it can do, while putting out a massive amount of damage which simply pushes it too far ahead for 10m and the 90 talents having no cap push it too far ahead in 25m. Everything else is eh. I'm fine with MW doing the amount of damage they do because it's all they bring, while disc brings everything you ever would need and then that same damage.


I'm curious as to why you want to reduce the damage disc does. The damage is still far behind a dps, so if they reduce the healing from atonement, for what purpose will reducing their damage do besides make mistweavers look better, due to their lack utility?
Edited by Zolvolt on 1/26/2014 9:21 AM PST
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100 Orc Shaman
HC
18655
01/26/2014 09:20 AMPosted by Zolvolt
01/26/2014 09:13 AMPosted by Sensations
As long as disc priest deal significantly less damage, that's all that really matters. So what if they're absorbing the miniscule damage right now? Cap the 90 talents, reduce atonement damage by a significant amount and done.

My only real gripe with disc is the fact it has too much versatility. It can do all it can do, while putting out a massive amount of damage which simply pushes it too far ahead for 10m and the 90 talents having no cap push it too far ahead in 25m. Everything else is eh. I'm fine with MW doing the amount of damage they do because it's all they bring, while disc brings everything you ever would need and then that same damage.


I'm curious as to why you want to reduce the damage disc does. The damage is still far behind a dps, so if they reduce the healing from atonement, for what purpose will reducing their damage do besides make mistweavers look better, due to their lack utility?


I don't care so much about the healing atonement does, it can do the same amount of healing. The issue comes with how effective dps is from a healer who can do it all. I'm even iffy about the amount of damage a MW can do, but they bring nothing else to a raid except that damage so it can't really be argued against.

A disc priest however brings so much already, that damage on top just makes them the most desirable and frankly, broken. Most healers underestimate the value of dps, which is why most healers use the healing cloak and not the dps cloak, but a healer doing 100k dps without a sacrifice to healing can shed a nice chunk of time off the boss. More dps = faster kill = less mechanics to deal with it. Obviously in 25m it's less of a desire(Which is why I said capping the t90 talents would be a change more suited for 25m), but in 10m it's clearly visible. As for 20m, it'll really depend but can't theorize much about 20m when we're so far off.
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90 Human Priest
13720
01/26/2014 03:17 AMPosted by Skootalloo
Spirit Shell can really pull a number on big burst damage mechanics


01/26/2014 06:57 AMPosted by Viseo
Skootaloo summed it up below.


keep in mind in 25 man we can only cover 4 groups now, and that's only with a single poh devoted to each group, which averages out to a much smaller amount, and that's without accounting for incidental movement. then again, they'd have to cut down the duration of the application buff for WoD since there will be only 4 groups. I'd be ok with that.

01/26/2014 06:57 AMPosted by Viseo
It's an archaic mechanic and Discipline single-target direct heal abilities tend to get neglected. It's a bit ridiculous when even Smite tends to be given priority over them. Buffing those abilities can be problematic when Grace exists because... it's an additional variable. It would seem to be easier to put Grace on the chopping block and bake a bonus into those spells. Is it a huge problem or a major balance issue? Nope.


we would still use atonement over those single target heals, though. how big a buff do you want to give them?

01/26/2014 06:57 AMPosted by Viseo
In terms of stacking mastery.... And? Why is it a big deal if mastery ends up being prioritized again?


The reason is because if you remove crit from the DA equation and then simultaneously put auto-DA on poh, pom and single target heals (potentially including penance), we end up like paladins, only stronger. and even stronger than we are now, even with a DR on the 90 talents. The reason for this: Our DA is affected by crit in the frequency of its application and my mastery in the strength of each application. Mastery increases both the amount of our initial healing done and the amount each absorb is increased by when it is created.

tldr if you put automatic DA on everything, even if you nerf mastery a bit, we will stack mastery and the problem will be worse than it was before. in t14 we stacked mastery because we couldn't stack enough crit to make it worthwhile and auto-da was still on PoH so we had mastery levels upwards of FIFTY PERCENT in t14 gear. FIFTY. to compare, right now raid buffed i have something like 45% and that's with barely reforging for it except where I already have crit and have too much spirit and not gemming for it at all.

01/26/2014 06:57 AMPosted by Viseo
"Fixing" a spec doesn't necessarily mean nerfing it into the ground. IMO the biggest contributor to perceived problems with Disc has a lot less to do with numbers and more to do with overall spec mechanics. So if you were expecting massive nerf suggestions....


I wasn't expecting massive nerfs, but i wasn't expecting buffs. I was trying to point out that all you're doing with most of your changes aside from the meaningless grace change and possibly the atonement stuff (which is a decent suggestion) but if we put into place all the changes you've suggested we come up with pretty hefty buffs for an already overbuffed spec.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
01/26/2014 09:28 AMPosted by Tsilyi
keep in mind in 25 man we can only cover 4 groups now, and that's only with a single poh devoted to each group


That is if you bring a single disc priest. Bring 2 assign groups, and it is all taken care of. Most 25's i've run with over the years have had more than one disc, in T14 it made me sad to run with three. Half the time i was afk making burritos.

I know the 10 man thing will be gone next expac but regardless, you now just bring two disc that cover the 4 groups. I am fine with how strong it is, not fine with how short the CD is though. Especially when it pretty much lines up for any burst effects,
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100 Troll Priest
22770
01/26/2014 09:28 AMPosted by Sensations
01/26/2014 09:20 AMPosted by Zolvolt
...

I'm curious as to why you want to reduce the damage disc does. The damage is still far behind a dps, so if they reduce the healing from atonement, for what purpose will reducing their damage do besides make mistweavers look better, due to their lack utility?


I don't care so much about the healing atonement does, it can do the same amount of healing. The issue comes with how effective dps is from a healer who can do it all. I'm even iffy about the amount of damage a MW can do, but they bring nothing else to a raid except that damage so it can't really be argued against.

A disc priest however brings so much already, that damage on top just makes them the most desirable and frankly, broken. Most healers underestimate the value of dps, which is why most healers use the healing cloak and not the dps cloak, but a healer doing 100k dps without a sacrifice to healing can shed a nice chunk of time off the boss. More dps = faster kill = less mechanics to deal with it. Obviously in 25m it's less of a desire(Which is why I said capping the t90 talents would be a change more suited for 25m), but in 10m it's clearly visible. As for 20m, it'll really depend but can't theorize much about 20m when we're so far off.


I agree with the importance of the dps a healer can do. In an ideal world I think dps would stay the same for Draenor, but the healing from atonement would be low enough that you wouldn't dps nearly as much as we do now unless we were helping push a dps phase (think heroic garrosh p3) I think its acceptable to rely on your other healers to help push that dps phase in specific situations, and in that case I think its okay that the damage MW and Disc do would be just fine. Toning down the healing would set aside your concerns, and I mostly think this because if a holy priest went into dps chakra they end up doing more damage than disc AFAIK, and the only real edge disc has is that it heals (for a lot) while it deals damage. Thoughts?
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90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
01/26/2014 09:41 AMPosted by Zolvolt
and the only real edge disc has is that it heals (for a lot) while it deals damage. Thoughts?


Problem is, there is 0 trade off. Damage dealing as healers is fine, but there should be a down side imo.
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100 Troll Priest
22770
01/26/2014 09:48 AMPosted by Harpoa
01/26/2014 09:41 AMPosted by Zolvolt
and the only real edge disc has is that it heals (for a lot) while it deals damage. Thoughts?


Problem is, there is 0 trade off. Damage dealing as healers is fine, but there should be a down side imo.


I agree, and I believe if the downside is that if healing was 1/2 or a 1/4(just throwing numbers around) of non-atonement throughput, than I think that would be a good downside to have. What downside would you have in mind to give them?

edit: keeping in mind that atonement is a cool mechanic that Blizzard, AFAIK, wants to keep into the game because they like it. So we can't have the downside of atonement so bad that it makes disc never use atonement.
Edited by Zolvolt on 1/26/2014 9:51 AM PST
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100 Orc Shaman
HC
18655
<span class="truncated">...</span>

I don't care so much about the healing atonement does, it can do the same amount of healing. The issue comes with how effective dps is from a healer who can do it all. I'm even iffy about the amount of damage a MW can do, but they bring nothing else to a raid except that damage so it can't really be argued against.

A disc priest however brings so much already, that damage on top just makes them the most desirable and frankly, broken. Most healers underestimate the value of dps, which is why most healers use the healing cloak and not the dps cloak, but a healer doing 100k dps without a sacrifice to healing can shed a nice chunk of time off the boss. More dps = faster kill = less mechanics to deal with it. Obviously in 25m it's less of a desire(Which is why I said capping the t90 talents would be a change more suited for 25m), but in 10m it's clearly visible. As for 20m, it'll really depend but can't theorize much about 20m when we're so far off.


I agree with the importance of the dps a healer can do. In an ideal world I think dps would stay the same for Draenor, but the healing from atonement would be low enough that you wouldn't dps nearly as much as we do now unless we were helping push a dps phase (think heroic garrosh p3) I think its acceptable to rely on your other healers to help push that dps phase in specific situations, and in that case I think its okay that the damage MW and Disc do would be just fine. Toning down the healing would set aside your concerns, and I mostly think this because if a holy priest went into dps chakra they end up doing more damage than disc AFAIK, and the only real edge disc has is that it heals (for a lot) while it deals damage. Thoughts?


Oh agreed, right now disc just have too much and they sacrifice nothing. They're just a very well versed spec with no weak point. Lower that versatility and it sort of balances things out. I think I recall them saying atonement won't be so mana efficient as it is currently, which seems if they choose that route it'll lower the damage it does inherently as they won't be able to spam again till WoD end tier cause lolblizz.

And yea, holy priest in red chakra do much more damage but have a huge downside of losing out on a healing chakra and doing no healing in that spell cast time. Lowering the healing of atonement works as well, or the damage, or an increase in mana cost like i believe they hinted at. That in and of itself lowers their versatility which is the biggest issue.
Edited by Sensations on 1/26/2014 9:53 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
01/26/2014 09:49 AMPosted by Zolvolt
What downside would you have in mind to give them?


Don't know personally, hopefully the devs figure something out as they said in beta for mop that there would be some sort of trade off, though that was pretty much a joke i guess.

Right now when i dps the only thing i can do is dps. Yes i can stop and drop a totem or cast a spell, but i have to stop. Pretty much the same with Pallys, Druids, and Holy Priests. Their downside is they can't heal.

Think it would be better for them to figure out how to make disc want to use heal/greater heal. Right now there really isn't much reason.
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100 Orc Shaman
HC
18655
01/26/2014 09:53 AMPosted by Harpoa
01/26/2014 09:49 AMPosted by Zolvolt
What downside would you have in mind to give them?


Don't know personally, hopefully the devs figure something out as they said in beta for mop that there would be some sort of trade off, though that was pretty much a joke i guess.

Right now when i dps the only thing i can do is dps. Yes i can stop and drop a totem or cast a spell, but i have to stop. Pretty much the same with Pallys, Druids, and Holy Priests. Their downside is they can't heal.

Think it would be better for them to figure out how to make disc want to use heal/greater heal. Right now there really isn't much reason.


I don't even think it's possible with how atonement is. Even if they doubled the healing, 90% of the time disc would still resort to atonement because the healing wouldn't be required and the damage atonement brings.
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90 Gnome Priest
7175
01/24/2014 05:19 PMPosted by Evry
Really the best option is to remove DA and think of what to do from there.


Evry FTW. I see it as a necessary removal with the amount of crit available, and the amount that is going to be available in the expansion. If it's not out of hand yet...
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90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
01/26/2014 09:56 AMPosted by Sensations
I don't even think it's possible with how atonement is.


In it's current incarnation, nope it is not possible. Even if you nerfed 50% of the healing it would still be the go to. Like i said i don't know. It does rub me the wrong way though that they gutted TC because it was "too powerful" but then let this expac go the way it has. Makes me wonder.
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100 Troll Priest
22770
01/26/2014 09:59 AMPosted by Harpoa
01/26/2014 09:56 AMPosted by Sensations
I don't even think it's possible with how atonement is.


In it's current incarnation, nope it is not possible. Even if you nerfed 50% of the healing it would still be the go to. Like i said i don't know. It does rub me the wrong way though that they gutted TC because it was "too powerful" but then let this expac go the way it has. Makes me wonder.


That is very interesting to me. If they nerfed atonement healing by 50%, I would just use PoH more. Why would you still go-to atonement?
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90 Human Priest
13720
01/26/2014 10:01 AMPosted by Zolvolt
That is very interesting to me. If they nerfed atonement healing by 50%, I would just use PoH more. Why would you still go-to atonement?


I don't think it's really about PoH versus atonement, it's about spot healing with single target spells vs atonement, penance in particular. it's stronger at the 10 man level than in 25 but it's still what you would do any time the damage wasn't so heavy that you HAD to use PoH or spam PW:S. also, sure you may use PoH more but how much significantly more I don't know. I rarely cast PoH as disc outside of spirit shell, i'm not even sure of the relative padding you could do with it compared to PW:S spam. I may just test that on our farm bosses next week.
Edited by Tsilyi on 1/26/2014 10:09 AM PST
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100 Troll Priest
22770
01/26/2014 10:09 AMPosted by Tsilyi
01/26/2014 10:01 AMPosted by Zolvolt
That is very interesting to me. If they nerfed atonement healing by 50%, I would just use PoH more. Why would you still go-to atonement?


I don't think it's really about PoH versus atonement, it's about spot healing with single target spells vs atonement, penance in particular. it's stronger at the 10 man level than in 25 but it's still what you would do any time the damage wasn't so heavy that you HAD to use PoH or spam PW:S. also, sure you may use PoH more but how much significantly more I don't know. I rarely cast PoH as disc outside of spirit shell, i'm not even sure of the relative padding you could do with it compared to PW:S spam. I may just test that on our farm bosses next week.


I was actually considering trying to not atonement (outside of getting archangel) this week and just compare it to how I did last week with a lot of atonement. Would be interesting to see.
Edited by Zolvolt on 1/26/2014 10:11 AM PST
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90 Human Priest
13720
01/26/2014 10:10 AMPosted by Zolvolt
I was actually considering trying to not atonement (outside of getting archangel) this week and just compare it to how I did last week with a lot of atonement. Would be interesting to see.


do it for science!
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90 Pandaren Priest
14970
01/26/2014 06:08 AMPosted by Suplift
I remember a thread stating disc single target heals do more healing, compared to other healers single target heals, without grace.

Or am I remembering wrong.


They might have in Cata because of the huge Intellect boost, but they do not (so far as I know) at the moment. I can log in and test my heals in both specs (same gear) if you want! :-P
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90 Pandaren Priest
14970
Some of these changes that are being proposed are absurd. I'm really confused how any of these ideas would solve any actual problems. Grace gone and a buff to single target healing would accomplish very little, and since our single target healing isn't a problem or over powered than there really isn't any point in doing this really.. Besides grace is cool way of giving our single target a ramp-up, which doesn't necessarily hurt us or benefit us to a large degree. Besides Grace is the only reason we ever cast penance on an friendly target right now.


What are you smoking? Do you understand that because of the Grace mechanic, Disc single-target healing is less effective than that of any other class except for two things - Penance, and the overpowered abomination that Atonement has become.

The reason Atonement was buffed so hard is because of the clunky Grace mechanic. It's doing a stop-gap measure to give us effective single-target healing because our single-target heals flipping suck. And that is why Grace is a problem. Grace needs to go, Atonement needs to be nerfed in terms of damage and healing, and they need to give us viable single-target healing again. What we have now is trash.

I agree that atonement needs to be nerfed, and its already been said that its going to happen. Whether they get rid of the D.A aspect of it (something I hope they don't do) or just nerf the amount of healing atonement actually does (something I think is needed, which in turn lowers how much atonement D.A's will absorb) its obvious that atonement needs to be toned down and like I said, its going to happen so I wouldn't worry about it really at all, at this point.


Except that this is the point we should be worrying about it. Every expansion, there's a crew of people that start yelling, "Not time to worry about this yet!" when people start talking about possible changes, or things they want to see. But this is exactly the time we should be worrying about it - before changes have gone in. We should make our voices be heard so that hopefully now - while changes can still be made - the devs hear us. This is exactly the time to talk about this.

Disc isn't as ridiculously strong as its being made out to be, and while this thread started as an "absorbs are op" it easily has turned into showing that the community feels only disc absorbs are op. (which is a view that I see quite often) The real problem is our disc's absorb mechanics work with most encounter damage patterns. Our 90 talent doesn't have a cap and atonement is too good. Spirit shell isn't op and is only favorable when you can predict the damage incoming.


When all the damage is predictable, it doesn't matter if SS has a downside, because the downside doesn't come into play. See T14 for that one!

Disc is ridiculously strong right now. Disc needs an overhaul. It's no fun to be forced into playing the spec, and what Disc does in a raid makes raiding unfun for other healers. This is about more than being able to stomp everyone else in your raid. It's about their fun, too.

If you want solutions for disc. Cut back atonement, (happening) cap the 90 talent, and change the damage patterns for future content. This content is too burst > lull > burst >lull >burst > lull. These types of damage patterns result in disc dominating fights because they throw so many absorbs out. Their only good aoe healing during burst is their 90 talent and PoM. So like I said, there is no need to nerf SS, or nerf grace (lol r u srs), or anything else besides atonement and the 90 talent's target cap.


I completely disagree with you for the reasons above.
Edited by Tiriél on 1/26/2014 10:45 AM PST
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1 Blood Elf Paladin
0
01/22/2014 02:52 PMPosted by Eranthey
So basically if a druid anticipates big raid damage coming and applies rejuvs ahead of time, and then a disc priest blankets the whole raid in spirit shells and power word shields before the damage goes out, it makes the druid look bad on the meters (and if their raid leader only cares about throughput, could risk their raid spot) even though he or she did exactly what he or she was supposed to do.


On the flip side, if I'm on my Resto Druid healing with a Disc Priest, they are doing everything they can to blanket absorbs, and I still crush them on the meters, it just makes me look that much better :)

In our raids I typically double the healing of our Disc priest, lol
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