Save Alter Time!

100 Gnome Mage
15405
01/28/2014 03:28 PMPosted by Mastamagee
I'll post what Alter Time might look like next expansion:

Uncouple AT from DPS, make it keep everything else and enhance/fix its choosiness with debuffs. Location reset will still be a part of the spell (maybe add a glyph for PVE to negate the relocation) (relocation I see as being more geared towards PVP, anyways). This way, it can satisfy both PVE and PVP without screwing with the spell too much (aside from DPS).


While suggestions like this would save this golden cow, it falls in line with the lack of knowledge about how game design/game testing works.

That many changes to a spell's functionality would need extensive internal testing.....even more so for this particular spell due to it's already complicated nature. If you balance time needed for testing to "fix" Alter Time, with the time needed to test new abilities (90+100 talents), the new things are going to win every time.

As someone who works in the industry (granted, not at Blizz, but I guarantee the process is similar), I always take things like this into account when I provide feedback about anything.

That was a large part of the reason I agreed with Alter Time as a good choice for removal. The work involved with fixing it's issues (potential to kill you, not copying all buffs, removing your heroism, etc.) takes far more than removing the spell altogether.

Sure, it is a unique spell, but it has the same problem it always has. It is trying to be too many things at once. A DPS and mitigation CD that excels at neither.

01/28/2014 02:53 PMPosted by Akraen
Look, your parses aren't remarkable. You're mediocre at best. But that's not a problem. It's not a problem that you don't know how to time your Alter Time, or that your uptimes are bad


Hmmm...I thought this thread was a discussion about an ability, not attacking the skill of people.

I agree with people that it takes a higher level of skill to use the ability well. I can respect people who make the argument that they want to keep the ability because it allows them to showcase/differentiate their skill. I respect that point, though I don't share it.

However, I really have no respect for people whose counterpoint boils down to "L2Play". It's not reasoned discussion, it's an attempt to devalue the feedback of someone based on their skill. Well sorry, but the feedback of everyone is valuable, from the brand new mage who just started the game all the way to world ranking raiders/PvPers.
90 Pandaren Monk
6795
Take out Frostfire Bolt, make the mage armours passive per spec, make arcane explosion/blizzard/flamestrike unique per spec.

Frostfire Bolt has a proc for frost and that's it that I know of, otherwise it's just kinda there.
Why have all the different AoE abilities when you can just tune them more in lie with each other and have some spec flavour?
Do you really use any of the armours in other specs anyway (like the crit one as arcane or something)?

Quote from Lissanda
The bigger question for Blizzard has to come down to: is 24 abilities the number of abilities they want used in raiding situations? Are all 24 of those buttons so important, special, unique, and irreplaceable that removing any one of them is going to make the game so unfun and unplayable that the game couldn't survive its loss? Bashiok said something over the summer about how having 5 abilities can end up being better than having 30 abilities if the game play with those 5 buttons is more interesting and involved: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9792649374?page=4#65

I read that, and being from a green-texting-MVP,,, I had to PUKE.
That BIGGER QUESTION Lissanda has long since been answered by BALANCE MONGERING.
Imagine the bly dev's are the curator for the museum in France called "Louvre", and imagine instead of trying to reduce raiding abilities, that they are trying to reduce ways PAYING CUSTOMERS can see too much, too soon, too quickly of famous artworks like the Monalisa.

Take your question:

Are all 24 of those buttons so important, special, unique, and irreplaceable that removing any one of them is going to make the game so unfun and unplayable that the game couldn't survive its loss?

and change it to:

Are all 24 of those VIEWING-ANGLES so important, special, unique, and irreplaceable that removing any one of them is going to make the VIEWING-THE-MONSLISA so unfun and unplayable that the PATRON's couldn't survive its loss?

The analogy should sound STUPID to anyone, but sadly, that's what bly has done for YEARS.
bly should be trying to ADD more buttons, abilities, and THINGS, not even SLIGHTLY spend the time to consider removing them.
/sigh... LESS-CHOICE = LESS FUN = MORE SUBS LOST...
100 Blood Elf Mage
12490
01/28/2014 10:02 AMPosted by Lissanda
Then what buttons would you remove instead Akrraen? You say you want to keep X button, but what other 2 or 3 buttons would you remove from each mage spec's PVE rotation instead?

What bloat would you cut instead?

You don't want to have to make the hard choices, but picking on one of the multiple dozens of spells I've suggested culling in the ability bloat reduction is particularly unhelpful in the conversation if you don't chime in about where you think abilities should be cut. I've put the level 90 mage talents up. I put enrage effects as an entire mechanic up for cutting (instead folding into other existing mechanics). I've picked on pretty much every button type that people have across many threads. If Blizzard cut every button I suggested, no one would have buttons. However, the point is that - there are lots of places that could be cut, and it's Blizzard's job to decide what buttons we do use (but don't NEED to use) could get cut.

Blizzard may not choose Alter Time for culling, but they ARE going to cut out buttons you love. How do you decide which buttons to cut? I'm not the enemy. I don't get to make those decisions, but buttons you DO love are GOING to be cut somehow. And in the end, you'll still have a unique feeling character that is different from other classes, just with fewer buttons - regardless of what those buttons are.

Petitions to save button X are ineffective if you don't have another button you'd rather sacrifice instead.

See:

http://www.restokin.com/2014/01/the-hard-choices-when-to-cut-abilities-people-love/


I want to know why we need to lose any buttons.

Sure, there have been a few that deserved to get the axe, particularly because they were almost never used (amp and dampen magic some to mind) but this idea that there are too many buttons is BS. I miss Mana Shield, Focus Magic, Blast Wave and Flame Orb to name a few.

There is no real reason to remove spells. Tweak them sure, even give them the fire blast > Inferno blast treatment, but removing an ability should only be done when it's one that is almost never used.
100 Gnome Mage
15405
01/28/2014 04:09 PMPosted by Lucitya
I want to know why we need to lose any buttons.


There may not be a need. The whole discussion arose due to a tweet from Celetalon asking about it, as they look at the possibility of removing some buttons.
90 Worgen Mage
11790
That many changes to a spell's functionality would need extensive internal testing.....even more so for this particular spell due to it's already complicated nature. If you balance time needed for testing to "fix" Alter Time, with the time needed to test new abilities (90+100 talents), the new things are going to win every time.


I do agree that with lvl 100 talents coming into the mix and a new expansion, we won't see drastic changes to other spells and I speak solely as a player and not a Dev because I know nothing of development.
MVP - World of Warcraft
100 Pandaren Mage
13605
Okay, so here's a rotation that uses 26 buttons: Type the English Alphabet from A to Z in order:

abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz

Now, do it again, but faster, but the same: abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz

Now do it 10 times:
abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz. abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz. abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz. abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz. abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz. abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz. abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz. abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz. abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz.
abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz.

Congrats, now you have a rotation with tons of buttons. However, doing that over and over again is easy. It has lots of buttons, but you can just type them out the first time, and then copy/paste over and over and over again (or memorize the order, like US citizens are taught to memorize the alphabet in order at a young age and aren't really given choice over what order we say the letters in when we're asked to sing the alphabet song.

Or, you could have a rotation with just 4 letters that's more random:

abcd cbad bacd dabc bcad bacd abdc acbd

So, just having more buttons doesn't necessarily mean that the rotation is harder, better, or gives you any real choice. It's not the number of buttons, but the complexity of what you do with the buttons that matters. Blizzard's design of how the buttons interact with each other are always going to matter more than how many buttons you have on your bars.

If your rotation involves typing the alphabet in order, that doesn't give you more choice in what you are doing just because it has more letters. In fact, providing too many options has negative psychological impacts on people.

Psychological research actually suggests people are happier with few, but meaningful, choices over large amounts of meaningless and seemingly more random choices:
http://werbepsychologie-uamr.de/files/literatur/01_Iyengar_Lepper%282000%29_Choice-Overload.pdf

Blizzard already said that they are cutting buttons. They've probably already decided what buttons those are. However, until they make the announcements & release beta, we can keep speculating on areas where they may (or may not) cut buttons. Getting an idea of what the community reactions might be to cutting various types of spells in advance can help lessen the blows when the time comes. :)
Edited by Lissanda on 1/28/2014 4:26 PM PST
90 Pandaren Monk
6795
01/28/2014 04:21 PMPosted by Lissanda
Okay, so here's a rotation that uses 26 buttons: Type the English Alphabet from A to Z in order:

abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz

Now, do it again, but faster, but the same: abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz

Now do it 10 times:
abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz. abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz. abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz. abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz. abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz. abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz. abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz. abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz. abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz.
abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz.

Congrats, now you have a rotation with tons of buttons. However, doing that over and over again is easy. It has lots of buttons, but you can just type them out the first time, and then copy/paste over and over and over again (or memorize the order, like US citizens are taught to memorize the alphabet in order at a young age and aren't really given choice over what order we say the letters in when we're asked to sing the alphabet song.

Or, you could have a rotation with just 4 letters that's more random:

abcd cbad bacd dabc bcad bacd abdc acbd

So, just having more buttons doesn't necessarily mean that the rotation is harder, better, or gives you any real choice. It's not the number of buttons, but the complexity of what you do with the buttons that matters. Blizzard's design of how the buttons interact with each other are always going to matter more than how many buttons you have on your bars.

If your rotation involves typing the alphabet in order, that doesn't give you more choice in what you are doing just because it has more letters. In fact, providing too many options has negative psychological impacts on people.

Psychological research actually suggests people are happier with few, but meaningful, choices over large amounts of meaningless and seemingly more random choices:
http://werbepsychologie-uamr.de/files/literatur/01_Iyengar_Lepper%282000%29_Choice-Overload.pdf


And yet the main reason I see people leaving Guild Wars 2, even BEFORE reaching the non-existent endgame, is the lack of buttons to press.
90 Troll Mage
15140
01/28/2014 03:56 PMPosted by Grizzlebeez
However, I really have no respect for people whose counterpoint boils down to "L2Play".


When someone keeps claiming things like DPS loss and raid wipes as a reason the spell is bad, it really is a "learn to use it properly".

I can say cars stink because they keep sending me to the hospital, every time I drive one i crash. The obvious answer is that maybe I should get better at driving? No reason to take cars away form everyone who can drive.

It's an amazing interactive and high skill cap spell. I hate hate HATE when they remove things that actually require some thought and player ability. This game doesn't need to get easier.
MVP - World of Warcraft
100 Pandaren Mage
13605
01/28/2014 04:25 PMPosted by Yeng
And yet the main reason I see people leaving Guild Wars 2, even BEFORE reaching the non-existent endgame, is the lack of buttons to press.


When playing Pac Man, you could only do four things: move left, move right, move up, and move down. Pac man wouldn't have been better or worse if you could also move in other directions JUST based on the number of directions. What was engaging was the overall play, the flow, the difficulty, the reward system, and overall aspects of fun unrelated to how many choices you could make at any particular second. So, if the number of "buttons" mattered more than actual gameplay, no one would have ever played Pac Man or other early video games that really had only a tiny number of actual options.

So, if Guild Wars 2 was boring, it wasn't just about the number of buttons you had. If Guild Wars doubled your number of spells, but still had all the same exact flaws otherwise, it still would have been boring. Monotonous game play has nothing to do with the number of possible buttons you can press - but how overall engagement is maintained (or not).
Edited by Lissanda on 1/28/2014 4:51 PM PST
MVP - World of Warcraft
100 Pandaren Mage
13605
As an aside:
I like talking about game design. It's why I've been part of the community for a number of years. I don't, however, think that it is necessary or helpful to insult individual players as an argument for why changes should or shouldn't be made to a video game. I really appreciate the people who are putting thoughtful responses into what abilities should or shouldn't be removed. In most cases, well formulated arguments in favor of (or against) keeping a spell could impact Blizzard's thinking. So, please keep comments about the games and not about people. Thanks.

In general, Blizzard is going to cut some abilities from some classes. So, this eventuality is going to come to pass. They probably have already decided on their list of abilities to cut, so this is more of an exercise in intellectual debates and guesses about what they may or may not have already decided.

Changes to alter time, however, are a pretty safe place for me to bet on (especially given that it's been something on everyone's mind for months and isn't a particularly new topic by any means: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/10974267356 )
Edited by Lissanda on 1/28/2014 4:57 PM PST
90 Worgen Druid
16230
Are people really complaining on button bloat with Mages? Is this real life?

Also, the only reason why people hate AT in its current incarnation is either because their raid doesn't communicate when exactly lust is going to be used or the PBoI trinket. which is a pretty petty reason why we should scrap/modify this ability.

I 100% guarantee you half the qq from PvE'rs about AT would disappear if PBoI was guaranteed to proc on pull and at a much better proc chance.
01/28/2014 04:21 PMPosted by Lissanda
Okay, so here's a rotation that uses 26 buttons: Type the English Alphabet from A to Z in order:

abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz

Now, do it again, but faster, but the same: abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz

Now do it 10 times:
abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz. abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz. abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz. abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz. abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz. abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz. abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz. abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz. abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz.
abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz.

Congrats, now you have a rotation with tons of buttons. However, doing that over and over again is easy. It has lots of buttons, but you can just type them out the first time, and then copy/paste over and over and over again (or memorize the order, like US citizens are taught to memorize the alphabet in order at a young age and aren't really given choice over what order we say the letters in when we're asked to sing the alphabet song.

Or, you could have a rotation with just 4 letters that's more random:

abcd cbad bacd dabc bcad bacd abdc acbd

So, just having more buttons doesn't necessarily mean that the rotation is harder, better, or gives you any real choice. It's not the number of buttons, but the complexity of what you do with the buttons that matters. Blizzard's design of how the buttons interact with each other are always going to matter more than how many buttons you have on your bars.

If your rotation involves typing the alphabet in order, that doesn't give you more choice in what you are doing just because it has more letters. In fact, providing too many options has negative psychological impacts on people.

Psychological research actually suggests people are happier with few, but meaningful, choices over large amounts of meaningless and seemingly more random choices:
http://werbepsychologie-uamr.de/files/literatur/01_Iyengar_Lepper%282000%29_Choice-Overload.pdf

Blizzard already said that they are cutting buttons. They've probably already decided what buttons those are. However, until they make the announcements & release beta, we can keep speculating on areas where they may (or may not) cut buttons. Getting an idea of what the community reactions might be to cutting various types of spells in advance can help lessen the blows when the time comes. :)


meaningful choices in a rotation? You mean like how ferals were in wrath? aka the spec almost none of the playerbase could properly play? What kind of meaningful choices are you creating by removing spells?

It sounds like this boils down to "i have trouble using X so it should be removed." And doing that certainly isn't making rotations "more meaningful", it means the opposite.
Edited by Dizzee on 1/28/2014 4:57 PM PST
100 Gnome Mage
15405
01/28/2014 04:35 PMPosted by Xiun
When someone keeps claiming things like DPS loss and raid wipes as a reason the spell is bad, it really is a "learn to use it properly".


No, it's not. They are saying what they see as problems.

01/28/2014 04:35 PMPosted by Xiun
It's an amazing interactive and high skill cap spell. I hate hate HATE when they remove things that actually require some thought and player ability. This game doesn't need to get easier.


This is a great response to that, which I can get behind. One which doesn't require calling other people's skill into play.
MVP - World of Warcraft
100 Pandaren Mage
13605
01/28/2014 04:57 PMPosted by Dizzee


meaningful choices in a rotation? You mean like how ferals were in wrath? aka the spec almost none of the playerbase could properly play? What kind of meaningful choices are you creating by removing spells?

It sounds like this boils down to "i have trouble using X so it should be removed." And doing that certainly isn't making rotations "more meaningful", it means the opposite.


No, the "John Madden" feral rotations were exactly the type of mistakes that Blizzard needed to fix. Tons of abilities that have crazy interactions and combinations aren't actually particularly all that fun to play, except for a handful of people who didn't want "John Madden" rotations nerfed to have fewer buttons. In no place at any point in time have I ever argued that John Madden druids were a good idea, but it's also important to note that druids didn't have choices in their John Madden rotation - the person who won was the person who used their addons to manage their rotations and tell them what buttons to press in what order. Blizzard already has hard data on how many buttons are "optimal" in terms of player psychology, and they've talked about the optimal number of buttons for many years.

Instead, I have a long (8 or more year) history of picking on problematic spells, talents, or other aspects of the game. That's just what I do - even when people don't agree at the time. Most of the time, this involved arguing in favor of more buttons, or fixes to buttons. However, Blizzard (NOT ME) decided that WOD is going to be the expansion of Less Buttons, along with a stat squish that's going to reduce everyone's damage back to more reasonably sized numbers. I haven't done anything other than discuss dozens of different buttons that could be put up on the chopping block (or not) across more than one class. So, I'm making the discussion be about cutting buttons because that's what discussions are worth having for WOD when that's where Blizzard's focus already is.

The spells I'm choosing to focus on for any particular day (of which there are many buttons and many days) focus around ones that cause problems, and where removing the button may be more worthwhile than trying to fix the buttons. Most of the time over the MOP expansion, this focus has revolved around the level 90 talents and how big of a mistake I think Rune of Power was to add to the game.

Blizzard, however, has stated that they aren't just going to remove buttons and pretend that everyone's rotations aren't changed by removing the button, but that removing a button follows a really extensive process, and balancing after the removal is also a really extensive process. So, in whatever choices they make, all the classes are still going to be fun, interesting, and unique to play.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/10673937505?page=5#89

The discussion ongoing for months is still about targeting classes and trimming buttons that are part of the core rotations that people use every day.
Edited by Lissanda on 1/28/2014 5:15 PM PST
95 Night Elf Mage
16550
I can't believe you honestly think the "rotation" is hard. Frost mage doesn't even have a rotation, you should know that. We're priority-proc based casters.

The reason I throw your logs in your face and critique your performance is because did the thought ever cross your mind that the mage class might not be the problem, instead you are?

I am not a mechanic, therefore I don't fix cars and try to charge people money.
I am not a doctor, therefore I do not dispense medical advice and medication.
I am not an astronaut, therefore I do not show up on launch day with my suitcase.

Face it, you don't like the ability because it's too hard for you. You're below a pretty low skill cap. It's not personal. You're an incredible person who I will admire and respect no matter how these posts continue to go or what is said. You're just not that astronaut, Lissanda. It's not that the ability is bad, or too hard-- it's that you can't use it properly. Same goes for Grizzlebees and a lot of other people.

I did a lot of analysis for frost mages recently. I hosted Analysis Week on Icy Veins, so I could see in detail and present with a nice chart where people's issues were. I discovered that every single player who was bad at Alter Time also had low uptimes (like you do), wasted FoF and BF procs (like you do), time between casts (like you do), and bad cooldown management (like you do).

That's not the game's fault.

So yes, Grizzle. Learn to play or quit griping about it. The onus is on you to play the game as intended if and only if that is your goal. Nobody is making you play in heroic content. You'll all just be fantastic, wonderful people who don't raid instead of ones who are raiding in a self-induced abject misery.

All expansion we've had Mastamagee tweeting diarrhea at developers, Lissanna complaining about how difficult the game is, and others whining about this or that. Maybe if it is just so bad for you, you should stop. Evaluate. Maybe don't raid heroic content. If you stop thinking that those who do are better than you, then you can easily detach yourself from the perceived "requirement" to do so.

Just take that step back. You guys have been too unhappy in a really bad way. I love mage, and you know what, no matter what changes get made-- I'll still love mage. And I'll be here, analyzing, helping others, and being happy and positive about it.
Edited by Akraen on 1/28/2014 5:27 PM PST
100 Draenei Mage
19575
Remove combustion!
MVP - World of Warcraft
100 Pandaren Mage
13605
01/28/2014 04:35 PMPosted by Xiun


It's an amazing interactive and high skill cap spell. I hate hate HATE when they remove things that actually require some thought and player ability. This game doesn't need to get easier.


This is a perfectly reasonable opinion to have, though I am allowed to have an opinion that disagrees to all points.

I think Blizzard could keep mages interesting and difficult without having to put in traps that some players will fall in. I don't think a race is better just because they have invisible boulders for people to trip on and hurt themselves along the way. I don't think dodging invisible boulders mean that people are more highly skilled. I think mages had plenty of ways to play skillfully before the last couple of years when alter time was introduced. I think Alter Time and rune of power together made mages worse as a class instead of better, mainly due to how raid boss encounters were designed. If we were still fighting Patchwerk, both would be absolutely wonderful abilities. However, both abilities were designed with the idea that we were still fighting patchwerk, and won't work as fights require more and more movement to completely random boss abilities that that are 100% out of your control. I think the only thing that makes alter time hard is that the spell is poorly designed for current encounters. Alter time isn't difficult at all when you are fighting against Patchwerk bosses that require no movement - it just becomes another boring "set it and forget it" DPS buff equally boring as mirror images (though I could agree that mirror images is a spell that could easily be cut as someone else suggested earlier due to the same problem of being boring).

I don't think Alter Time actually measures skill to a certain degree: I think it measures luck (e.g., does the random boss ability drop poop on your head or not) and your ability to use addons and do exactly what your addons tell you to do at the exact right time - that isn't terribly skillful enough to live with the huge flaws and problems inherent to the DPS buff's likelihood of making you do less damage by over-writing procs and buffs such as Heroism.

I think they can maintain some amount of skillfulness and difficulty while making Alter Time either a better designed spell or not exist at all. The same goes for if they removed Rune of Power, or if they removed slowfall, or if they removed Teleport: Tol Barad. They're all buttons, but they all do different things, and have different uses/strengths/weaknesses., and I could argue for or against keeping any spell in any class' rotations (and I've picked on just about every single ability mages or druids have at some point in my history of picking on spells). I don't expect Blizzard to change every spell I suggest changing. In fact, my track record isn't all that great overall. I do, however, enjoy having constructive conversations with people who have constructive feeedback one way or another. So, please keep using constructive talking points about the actual ability's mechanics.

No one likes changes to games that they see as being "nerfs". The idea of "nerfs" is incredibly unpopular. That doesn't mean adding 200 more abilities to the game would make the game better just because it would give everyone new toys. It also doesn't mean that removing 200 abilities from the game would make it better. There still, however, is room for Blizzard to make the game better. I'm perfectly willing to discuss various ways of making the game better.

I've also agreed on several occasions that changes to alter time (rather than removing the ability entirely) could fix the flaws - but that removing it would likely be the far simpler and direct fix, even if unpopular in the short-term. They probably won't actually remove alter time altogether, but I'm betting it will change in some way or another and won't be exactly the same ability a year from now with zero changes. I can still dislike the spell as my own personal opinion, and other people are perfectly welcome to think the spell is the best thing since WOW was invented. I am perfectly willing to accept the fact that people aren't going to agree on any change Blizzard ever makes, and it is perfectly okay for people to differ in their opinions.
Edited by Lissanda on 1/28/2014 6:10 PM PST
100 Gnome Mage
15405
01/28/2014 05:26 PMPosted by Akraen
it's that you can't use it properly. Same goes for Grizzlebees and a lot of other people.


Once again, you are just putting that label on people to belittle their arguments.

For the record, I have never once said I can't use AT, nor have I said it's too hard, nor any of the things you have attributed to me. I use it just fine, thanks. Pointing out the potential pitfalls of something does not mean you are unable to use it.

I can point out the potential for guns to backfire, but that doesn't mean I am not quite the marksman.

01/28/2014 05:26 PMPosted by Akraen
So yes, Grizzle. Learn to play or quit griping about it. The onus is on you to play the game as intended if and only if that is your goal. Nobody is making you play in heroic content. You'll all just be fantastic, wonderful people who don't raid instead of ones who are raiding in a self-induced abject misery.


Once again, you projecting things onto posts that are in no way there.

The only "griping" I have done is with the L2Play argument itself, because it provides zero reasonable and valuable discussion.

01/28/2014 05:26 PMPosted by Akraen
I love mage, and you know what, no matter what changes get made-- I'll still love mage.


Hard to believe, since you have led a campaign over 3 sites and twitter to demean and belittle anyone who disagrees that Alter Time is the greatest thing ever created.
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