Save Alter Time!

90 Night Elf Mage
12340
Just be really careful about how you speak to one another folks, even if you don't mean it personally. It can be taken that way.

CMs are never shy about shutting down threads like this and that would be the worst thing that could happen.

Edit: often the sharpest folks in a room are the least sensitive.
Edited by Carepolice on 1/28/2014 11:43 PM PST
MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Pandaren Mage
12100
01/28/2014 08:37 PMPosted by Verraine


I don't know, the whole "can't control procs" reasoning seems pretty weak to me. Besides, if every aspect of player abilities is under the player's own control, then we arrive at a situation where there's no "complex interaction", because every button press will have a set rotation in place. So you're kind of undermining your own argument here.

I've offered up suggestions for button bloat removal that I think makes more sense than removing Alter Time.


I ultimately don't really strongly care about what does or doesn't get removed. I made a joke post on twitter about Time Warp that blew up because someone decided to make it a much bigger deal than the joke post deserved, and so I'm stuck here having to argue about something I quite ironically don't ultimately really care about one way or another. I've already stated that Time Warp was one of dozens of different spells I've picked on (and I really talked about groupings of spell types, not individual spells in the first place). So, I didn't pick this argument to have in the first place.

I also didn't ask for Blizzard to remove random procs from mages at any point in my giant list of things I talked about in the thread. Random procs, by themselves, are good for rotations. However, I was suggesting that Alter Time NOT simultaneously have the interactions with damage procs, heroism, your health value, and movement together such that you run a risk of lowering your DPS or dieing when you use it at the wrong time, and that the "wrong time" is often randomly something you have zero control over - because the game (and not you) has that control in situations where it matters. So, Alter Time's flaws are problems you can try to control, but ultimately, poor game design in the interaction between AT and the game mechanics still makes Alter Time a worse spell than it could be.

If they changed the spell and fixed the problem (make it not cancel heroism that other people cast, and/ or not move you back into fires that are randomly dropped on your head), mages could still be designed to be complex and have random procs they are responding to - but not have luck be the only deciding factor in whether you are successful or unsuccessful for the next X seconds after you pop time warp.

They wouldn't technically even need to remove the spell if they fixed the big problems with it that ultimately take away player control (and leave you with simply the illusion of control). It also wouldn't need to get fixed if Blizzard stopped making heavy movement fights (but they won't). We can't just design spells that work for today's bosses in today's raids, but what's going to work 2 years from now in future content, too. I still contend that Alter Time (if left unchanged) is going to cause future problems for the mage class (and that it is already). What Blizzard decides to do to fix it isn't really something I have a say in.
Edited by Lissanda on 1/29/2014 5:12 AM PST
90 Human Mage
14525
jk's 1-50

A few of those aren't used in arena, three are engineering specific (I'm not one) and you can combine 40/41 into one button with a smart macro. :) http://wowpedia.org/Mount_macros

Wouldn't really count this, considering it's somethign everyone needs.

It's still a hotkey.
If someone/you has too many binds to handle, you can easily swap these out depending on what the fight needs (IE use flamestrike on galak, Blizzard on shamans etc).

I personally do just fine with my keybinds. I've been playing the game since vanilla. It's second nature to me. I still recognize that having as many keybinds as I do is a huge hurdle for most players and something that can be smoothed out in the design process.
Can be macro'd together (and honestly should) (you also said AT twice).

The second alter-time should have been listed as timewarp. Again, I typed that list off memory.

There are benefits to having Icy Veins/Alter Time off of the same button, but that's a discussion for another thread.

Honestly you can keep the idiot on assist and not need to micro manage him at all. Only instance i ever had an issue with that is on 2 bosses in CMs. That's it.

You can, but it's not optimal. You can also take alter time off your bars and ignore it - It's not optimal for dealing with boss mechanics where something needs to die 'as soon as possible', but you can do it. That doesn't mean for the average player it isn't a huge mess :)

All of these can be just clicked out of your spell book, and then instead of using binds for OOC things you could use them for other abilities that are situational. I guess I could say mounts, but those are easily just clicked on your bars, no need to take keybinding space

Those items were not included in my original list of 33 items. Those are keys I have set for personal convenience. It was a rebuttal to JK who I figured was listing abilities like bloodlust or battle standard into his 'keys he always uses' in arena when he countered my claim with 'oh yeah well I have 50+'

Spellsteal - When are you using this so often that you feel like it needs a permanent bind? Only time I've needed this so far is on H spoils...
EMFH - Err, when are you getting CC'd in a raid?
sheep - Again I've needed this on one fight so far - H paragons
slowfall - When is this used besides OOC falling off a cliff? Don't say malk, you can use blink on that for a lot less downtime.
ring of frost - same as everything above, when are you using this frequently? And again I can only say one fight it was ever needed (H Blackfuse for bombs)
symbiosis - I'm suprised druids give this to you, let alone you'd take the time to cast such an awful heal.
Arcane Intellect (for when someone drops) - can easily just be clicked on an action bar

Spellsteal - Whenever you can. I'm not going to redo keybindings fight to fight.
EMFH - Honestly you'd be surprised at how useful this becomes.
Sheep - Trash before Garrosh. Again, not redoing binds every fight.
Slowfall - Assisting guildies with knock up mechanics.
RoF - Nothing this tier. Hold over key that usually gets swapped depending on talent choices. Again, not rekeying every encounter.
Symbiosis - A crappy heal is still a heal.
AI - It's worthy of a keybind. If someone dies and rebuffs are called out, I'd rather hit a key than click. Any ability can easily be clicked, but then what are the point of hotkeys?

---------------
My point is that 33 keybinds are a lot. 23 would be a lot. That is very, very frightening to someone looking at learning to play the game, no matter what class they are.

To the notion that certain abilities are only used on one or two encounters a tier - That is actually part of the problem. Many keys are worthy of hotkey real-estate because of the effects they have on one or two encounters. A few of these could be chopped across all classes. Does Symbiosis need to remain in the game? Healthstone? There are two freed keys right there for every class.

Do mages need three AoE abilities? Do Fire/Frost really need mana gems?

And more pertinent to the original topic - Does the 'fun' of alter time outweigh it's negatives enough to justify it remaining in the game?
Edited by Mumrit on 1/29/2014 5:40 AM PST
55 Draenei Death Knight
0
90 Human Mage
Wild Knights
7365

If we are talking about removing buttons can we remove Invocation?


THIS^ This spell drives me insane, I hate it... worse than Alter Time and the worst of times.
90 Gnome Mage
14045
01/28/2014 10:15 PMPosted by Blinkdog
I swear every time I hear something about WoD it just sounds worse and worse.


Just to reiterate, the focus on Alter Time has come all from the mage community as a whole, not Blizz devs. They only brought up the question of what people thought could be removed. The suggestion of Alter Time began a war of epic proportions.

And this back and forth about who has more keybinds/macros kinda plays into my reasoning why Alter Time is a prime candidate (which I kinda pointed out a few pages ago)

Alter Time doesn't pass the n00b test. I have no issue with abilities that are complex to use and that allow better skilled players to differentiate themselves over time. However, when a spell has the potential to kill someone by using it, that doesn't work.

The reason all the keybind/macro talk ties in, is because most of the people who are so adamant and passionate about not losing AT are long time players of high skill level. I can understand why they want to keep it. It is that thing that allows them to shine. Although, I am not at their level of skill, I can see why they would miss having the spell.

My argument asks the same thing of them though. Think of the brand new mage who doesn't have hundreds of keybinds and addons. Someone who is playing the game stock, first moving into attempts at organized play. Here is where Alter Time has that potential to kill someone,......and for those people who don't have boss mod timers telling them when everything is going to happen, that likelihood is higher.
MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Pandaren Mage
12100


If we are talking about removing buttons can we remove Invocation?

THIS^ This spell drives me insane, I hate it... worse than Alter Time and the worst of times.


Yes, the level 90 mage talents have been on my hit-list for the entire expansion.
Edited by Lissanda on 1/29/2014 6:50 AM PST
90 Night Elf Mage
17065
01/28/2014 10:15 PMPosted by Blinkdog
That's a ghastly idea. Alter Time is one of the most fun, useful, and powerful abilities in the entire game. There are plenty of other things that could be given the chop before picking on Alter Time.

I swear every time I hear something about WoD it just sounds worse and worse.


That's because carebears run their mouths on forums while the rest of the playerbase refuses to comment. The mage community must band together before we're a 1-button class with no thematics or identity left. All in the name of making it so a 2-year-old could play the class.
90 Night Elf Mage
17065
01/29/2014 06:31 AMPosted by Lissanda


If we are talking about removing buttons can we remove Invocation?

THIS^ This spell drives me insane, I hate it... worse than Alter Time and the worst of times.


Yes, the level 90 mage talents have been on my hit-list for the entire expansion.


And this is where we agree ten billion percent! And I swear, once you no longer have to use your upkeep buff, you'll feel a lot more free to use other abilities. Your "rotation" (which isn't really a rotation) will feel less constrictive and oppressive.

You will feel ten times the player once you no longer need those L90 talents.
90 Night Elf Mage
17065
[quote="114210849700"]...snip...

My argument asks the same thing of them though. Think of the brand new mage who doesn't have hundreds of keybinds and addons. Someone who is playing the game stock, first moving into attempts at organized play. Here is where Alter Time has that potential to kill someone,......and for those people who don't have boss mod timers telling them when everything is going to happen, that likelihood is higher.


Think of a brand new anything. Day 1 on the job, month 1 on the job. There's no fun in it if you aren't getting somewhere, progressing both at a character and a player level.

Why would I want to be able to master everything the first time I pick it up?

You think I've always been some expert at Alter Time? Hell ask my guild. I've had some hilarious fails with it, particularly back in Tier 14. I've only been a mage since Dragon Soul, before that I was a hardcore druid just like Lissanna.

But I got better at it. And even as I got better at it, I still had some funny fails. But I guess my heroic guild isn't as full of angst as yours, because when I'd fail with it, we'd all laugh. People would say "oh Akraen tearing a hole in spacetime again" - and I absolutely loved that. It's risk, it's lively-- it's not just some facebook game.

Alter Time means a lot, to a lot of people. So yes, this is an epic battle, and as long as you guys try to take things away-- I'm going to rally the troops against you. Just consider me your #1 pest, because I'm defending the integrity of the mage class.
MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Pandaren Mage
12100
01/29/2014 06:58 AMPosted by Akraen


And this is where we agree ten billion percent! And I swear, once you no longer have to use your upkeep buff, you'll feel a lot more free to use other abilities. Your "rotation" (which isn't really a rotation) will feel less constrictive and oppressive.

You will feel ten times the player once you no longer need those L90 talents.


I had an entire blog post last January (in 2013) about why I hated the level 90 mage talents, and led a pretty strong campaign against them for a long time (and still take every opportunity possible to bash the level 90 mage talents).

My AT feedback was part of a larger discussion of dozens of different possibilities of things that could get changed/fixed long-term (and most of that happened with 2 sentences embedded within 10 paragraphs of text that made suggestions about large sweeping classes of spell categories). At this point, Blizzard has likely already made the decisions about what buttons they do or don't want to cut, but we haven't seen the results yet (and won't until beta starts).

Celestalon asked about buttons people loved that had the possibility of getting cut (which as you can see by this thread, Alter Time is the definition of an ability we could easily see getting changed/cut even if some people love it). Alter Time is unlikely to stay exactly the same - mainly because of how it is likely going to horribly interact with the level 100 prolonged exposure talent when they do internal testing. I think Prolonged Exposure is actually the way to get an AT-like effect that works in PVE (with how prolonged exposure interacts with mage abilities), so that they can make AT just be a survivability cooldown.

If you have so little faith in Blizzard that you think they will leave every class with 2 total buttons when they say they want to trim back some of the bloat (and that there's no room between 30 buttons and 2 buttons), then there's really not a whole lot I can say in productive conversation.

In the original set of tweets (that followed a blog post and a 6 page mage forum discussion thread, several blue posts on the forums and dozens of discussions across various websites), I suggested that my main concern was that Blizzard wouldn't cut enough spells and referenced Alter Time as an example of something I thought they should cut, but probably wouldn't. Somehow, joking about Alter Time killing me in fires made us have to quite pointlessly repeat the same exact conversation we've already had several times.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/10974267356?page=1

We've already been having this conversation for months. I think Blizzard will change Alter Time and WOD AT won't be the same as it is now. I don't know what that version of AT will look like, but we can be pretty sure they will make changes.

I think the level 90 talents are something that is much more likely to disappear altogether. The questions we're getting, however, aren't about what spells we think should be changed, but what spells we think Blizzard will or won't remove (or should / shouldn't remove). Discussions about whether or not to remove Alter Time, mana gems, the level 90 talents, mirror images, arcane explosion, Teleport: Tol Barad, slowfall, or pretty much every other button we have is something worth thinking about, but ultimately isn't any of our decisions. We'll still have tons of spells in WOD. We'll still have complex and interesting rotations that are "easy to learn, hard to master" as Blizzard so often says.
Edited by Lissanda on 1/29/2014 7:22 AM PST
90 Gnome Mage
14045
01/29/2014 07:03 AMPosted by Akraen
Why would I want to be able to master everything the first time I pick it up?


I never said you should.

Reapplying your multi-DoTs at optimal times due to procs is something a highly skilled person can do to make themselves stand out. However, a lesser skilled player does not have the potential to die because they didn't reapply their DoTs at the optimal time.

Those are skill based differentiations I can get behind.

01/29/2014 06:58 AMPosted by Akraen
You will feel ten times the player once you no longer need those L90 talents.


L2Play. Everyone know that the upkeep buff when used at 100% percent efficiency allows skilled players to put out more DPS. I can't stand when carebears like you want to remove the only things that take any skill for this class. You just want us to have a 2 button rotation.

I don't agree with any of that....I have called for the removal/changing of those talents since a week after hitting 90 during the MOP beta. I was basically told exactly the response I gave you,.....which looks remarkably similar to the responses you have been giving others about AT.
90 Night Elf Mage
17065
I don't mind invocation at all, and my uptimes aren't bad.

Lissanda's (and most mages) uptimes on the other hand are horrid, so I figure once you get rid of the L90s, you'll feel less constricted.

Keep at me Grizzle, you don't know much about Akraen forum history. I will out stamina you.
90 Human Mage
12830
Flamestrike/Blizzard/Arcane Explosion should all be on one button and change depending on spec. Much like mage bombs currently work. Thats 3 buttons that could easily be 1.

It could be done for many spells. Fireball/ Frostbolt / Arcane Blast. If your goal is reducing buttons, this would be any easy way to accomplish that. It would also make the class easier to learn as you would eliminate new frost mages using fire spells, etc.

I would rather see buttons merged than spells just outright removed.
90 Gnome Mage
14045
01/29/2014 08:00 AMPosted by Akraen
Keep at me Grizzle, you don't know much about Akraen forum history. I will out stamina you.


This is what is weird. You keep perceiving everything as a slight to you. All I have ever done with every posting I have made is try to get you and others to think outside yourself for a moment. To maybe look at how you are phrasing your arguments to make them more constructive and conducive to discussion.

Your response each time has basically been to attack the person whose opinion varies from your own.

So you are right, you will probably out-stamina me, because the whole reason I give up on forum participation during the live game is because there is no reasoned discussion (beta is a different story). Hell, the only reason I jumped into this discussion is because you quoted me in your linked post, but removed all of the reasons for my stance. I came in here and clarified my stance and the thoughts behind it.
90 Night Elf Mage
17065
Meh all you and Masta do is white knight Lissanda. That's why I am on the offensive.

Aside from that, I'm just merely raising the awareness that people might lose an ability they love-- so speak out about it!
90 Human Mage
14525
01/29/2014 08:00 AMPosted by Akraen
Lissanda's (and most mages) uptimes on the other hand are horrid, so I figure once you get rid of the L90s, you'll feel less constricted.

It's pretty fair to say that most mages (at least the vocal ones, which does include Lissandra) have hated the 90 talents since MOP beta.

My uptime is often 90-95%+ on the Invoker's Energy, sometimes higher. I still hate the ability.
Aside from that, I'm just merely raising the awareness that people might lose an ability they love-- so speak out about it!

And that's well and good, but you don't need to assume everyone who disagrees with you is 'bad' :)
Edited by Mumrit on 1/29/2014 8:31 AM PST
MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Pandaren Mage
12100
That's why I am on the offensive.


The fact people have opinions and experiences that differ from your own is totally acceptable. Blizzard doesn't design the game around the idea that players have to agree on anything at any point in time. The debate isn't about people, it's about spells and design. Making the debate about people and their armories is utterly and entirely pointless.

The reason why I have green text is because I spend time worrying about people who aren't the best players in the world, because I believe that for Blizzard to be successful, they can't just cater to the small number of people who are totally perfect, hardcore, 14/14 Heroic raiders. Instead, they have to listen to a range of opinions, even from casual players whose lives are just too busy to care about what their up-time is on a particular spell, but instead care more about having fun and enjoying their life. So, I care about mechanics from a broader and bigger picture that is more important than myself. Blizzard wouldn't be a successful company if they had players vote on changes, or if they only listened to a tiny fraction of their player base.

Instead, it is okay for people to disagree - it is okay for me to not play totally perfectly because I have told the community many times that I stepped down from hardcore raiding to put my work focused on improving the lives of kids with autism and getting my PhD in psychology ahead of my DPS in raids. I think having WOW be something I do sub-optimally for fun doesn't make me a worse person, but just changes what my focus is.

I'd rather have spells that didn't kill me for raiding a couple hours at night when I'm tired after I'd been working 10 hours that day. I really don't expect Blizzard to actually change the game to make the spells work correctly and not be broken, but I can still dislike things I think are broken - and I can still enjoy playing my mage even if I make the choice to put work ahead of the game and retired from hardcore raiding 6 or so years ago.

For example, when you brought up Killing Spree: It's certainly unacceptable to me that if you use it on a surface that isn't flat, you have a chance of falling through the world and suffering death as a result. Sure, you could play better by only using killing spree on flat surfaces, but why shouldn't Blizzard just fix the problem where they designed a spell that randomly kills you?
Edited by Lissanda on 1/29/2014 8:43 AM PST
90 Worgen Mage
11790
Aside from that, I'm just merely raising the awareness that people might lose an ability they love-- so speak out about it!


And I loved Blast Wave, as did many others. I learned to play without it.

We learned to Mage without AT. We learned to Mage with AT. Hell, I bet you we'll learn to Mage with changes to AT or even WITHOUT AT.
Edited by Mastamagee on 1/29/2014 8:39 AM PST
MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Human Mage
10015
Just saw this. I'm pretty confident that Alter Time as a whole is not going away. I don't have any specific statements to that effect, but in past conversations I just haven't gotten that impression.

I do think it's reasonably likely to become a pure utility cooldown.
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