Low level BG Imbalance swept under the rug

90 Undead Monk
6280
01/27/2014 06:06 AMPosted by Kaleidoscope
I used to love low level BG. It was pretty well balanced during wrath. I loved working with less of a skill-set. I loved twinks. I miss twinks. Comparatively, it did take a LOT of time and effort to get those characters geared up and any class could do it.

Regardless, low-level class balance vanished at the Cata pre-patch. The way they changed abilities annihilated brackets, especially the bottom-most.


I agree whole-heartedly man. It's really sad.
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Community Manager
I had originally written here how World of Warcraft is a really big game, and while we know there are a lot of different types of activities outside of max-level content that people enjoy, we're not always going to be able to focus on each of them all of time. But it wasn't written particularly well and I feel like my points were probably fairly obvious to everyone. :)

Anyway, in short: we will be address some low-level PvP balance in Warlords.

First off it's worth noting the item squish. While individual brackets might not see a huge change, certainly the power curve between levels will be a smoother one. It'll have a bigger impact on world PvP as it'll be more like it was in vanilla, and relative power between characters won't see these dramatic swings. Back in the day even if you were 10, 20 or even 30 levels lower than someone else, you still had some shot at getting away, if not actually killing them. Of course as people start gearing up again that disparity will grow in the outdoor world, but it should be fun to get back to a smoother character power curve, and it'll at least always hold true for sub level-100 gank attempts.

We recognize that low-level PvP balance just hasn't gotten the attention it needs, and that's largely due to us having to focus our attention on content that the majority of players focus their attention (e.g. max level). In Warlords we're going to be doing a bit of ability shuffling (read: deleting) which is going to result in the need to smooth out the ability-acquisition pacing (when you get a new ability and at what level), and we'll also be taking a pass on low-level balance at the same time. It's difficult because of the spread of people across all levels and ensuring every ability of every spec at any one particular level vs. another character/level/spec of another level have parity. Low level brackets just inherently bring a measure of un-balance with them due to the possible level difference, which is necessary to ensure they can fill up with enough players. Our goal is primarily to smooth out the outlying abilities - and this is hand-in-hand with the item squish - to ensure the base damage of all the abilities before scaling is appropriate. There are just some obvious tuning problems right now that we'll take care of, and then as much finer tuning as we can manage. We'll be looking for feedback during beta.
Edited by Bashiok on 1/27/2014 12:11 PM PST
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90 Undead Warlock
13925
and we are looking for beta during feedback.

so when's beta coming? :D
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90 Night Elf Druid
3225
01/27/2014 12:09 PMPosted by Bashiok
Our goal is primarily to smooth out the outlying abilities - and this is hand-in-hand with the item squish - to ensure the base damage of all the abilities before scaling is appropriate


I thought base damage was being abolished entirely, in favor of pure scaling. At least this was what I have heard elsewhere many times before this.
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90 Tauren Hunter
5275
Why does devastate hit harder than abilities that use rage and yet cost zero rage and is spammable?
Why does shield slam hit harder than most dps classes hard hitting abilities?

I could go on, it's really, really broken. I can post on my warrior in the 40s I zing around and 2 shot people with as protection.

Also, why is protection the best dps spec until the 70s? It's nonsensical.
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90 Undead Warlock
13825
They need to fix the gear scaling in low level bgs. Its pathetic that a level 80 will have more health than a level 84.

Or a level 70 and level 74.

Or level 60 and level 64.
Edited by Mordecaí on 1/27/2014 12:22 PM PST
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90 Troll Monk
10135
Why should Blizzard cater to players who refuse to play the game properly? PVP is done at level 90.
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90 Undead Warlock
13825
01/27/2014 12:22 PMPosted by Sedwin
Why should Blizzard cater to players who refuse to play the game properly? PVP is done at level 90.


False.

They have Instanced pvp from level 10-90.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
5140
Bash thats great and all, but I think you need to take some complaints with a grain of salt. People will complain about any class that beats them, its about impossible to make everyone the same unless you literally make all the classes the same. And no one really wants that kind of homogenization. I think the idea if you are weak against certain classes is teamwork, after all thats what battlegrounds are supposed to be about..teamwork.

I firmly believe that all classes leveling up should get abilities in equal amounts, a level 20 x class shouldnt have 2 stuns and a disarm, while y class has one stun or none. This is the problem some classes are getting way more abilities for burst or control than others are in the same bracket. I think you need to rework what levels people get things, and pace it.
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90 Undead Warlock
13825
01/27/2014 12:24 PMPosted by Trínity
Bash thats great and all, but I think you need to take some complaints with a grain of salt. People will complain about any class that beats them, its about impossible to make everyone the same unless you literally make all the classes the same. And no one really wants that kind of homogenization. I think the idea if you are weak against certain classes is teamwork, after all thats what battlegrounds are supposed to be about..teamwork.

I firmly believe that all classes leveling up should get abilities in equal amounts, a level 20 x class shouldnt have 2 stuns and a disarm, while y class has one stun or none. This is the problem some classes are getting way more abilities for burst or control than others are in the same bracket. I think you need to rework what levels people get things, and pace it.


This too
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90 Troll Monk
10135
01/27/2014 12:23 PMPosted by Mordecaí
01/27/2014 12:22 PMPosted by Sedwin
Why should Blizzard cater to players who refuse to play the game properly? PVP is done at level 90.


False.

They have Instanced pvp from level 10-90.


So what? Abilities and bgs are balanced for 90. Just because you can do them at level 19, doesn't mean you should expect things to go like they do at 90.

Twinking is players playing the game the wrong way, and then expecting Blizzard to fix it. You need to stop.

Go run dungeons.
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55 Human Warrior
8220
my direct interpretation of this thread is that shield slam and blood boil are going to get gigantic nerfs at low levels

hopefully there will also be a bunch of hunter/heal nerfs as well for low levels.
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90 Troll Monk
10135
Bashiok, I think the whole Blizzard team should take about a week off and play some Guild Wars 2 pvp, then come back to designing the game with a fresh mind.
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90 Human Mage
10635
So Blizzard will look into low level battlegrounds after they make purchasable high levels.
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12 Human Warrior
11390
I think this part of the game is fine, please leave as is, thank you.
:)
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90 Undead Warlock
13825
01/27/2014 12:25 PMPosted by Sedwin
01/27/2014 12:23 PMPosted by Mordecaí
...

False.

They have Instanced pvp from level 10-90.


So what? Abilities and bgs are balanced for 90. Just because you can do them at level 19, doesn't mean you should expect things to go like they do at 90.

Twinking is players playing the game the wrong way, and then expecting Blizzard to fix it. You need to stop.

Go run dungeons.


Meaningless comment is meaningless.

Why should I run dungeons? Pointless comment dude.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
16845
01/27/2014 12:09 PMPosted by Bashiok
In Warlords we're going to be doing a bit of ability shuffling (read: deleting) which is going to result in the need to smooth out the ability-acquisition pacing (when you get a new ability and at what level), and we'll also be taking a pass on low-level balance at the same time.


Is this shuffling potentially going to include talents?

Been leveling another DK for the first time since the new talent system.

Getting your rune regeneration talents 20 levels after you start feels really really awkward.

I can kinda understand why Bliz felt that 60 was a bit early to rush in that choice, but frankly 75 is just way too late. They're just too fundamental a part of a DKs toolkit to do without for all BC & half of WotLK.
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90 Night Elf Druid
10045
Sigh. People still complain about this nonsense. All the changes, the nerfs etc that killed the original twink x9 brackets and its just gotten worse supposedly. The irony is delicious.

At least the OP and others are mostly talking about spell/mechanics issues instead of whining about gear. If you want to pvp seriously at a low level, get decent gear for pvp and learn to play your class. Class imbalances have existed since the game started in low levels. Hunters and rogues were always nasty, you learned to compensate for them in pvp, if you had skill.

I still remember some level 28 mage calling my 29 mage an "evil twink" in a wsg because I had around 1400HP buffed and he had 800. Nevermind he was in badly itemized quest gear, gear that was meant for pve not pvp. I was just wearing all stam/int gear with 29 level enchants.
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90 Undead Warlock
13825
01/27/2014 12:31 PMPosted by Nastypie
I think this part of the game is fine, please leave as is, thank you.
:)


Majority of the playerbase disagrees with you.
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