Plans for WoD -- Remove casting on the move?

9 Troll Priest
0
02/10/2014 12:19 PMPosted by Murdina
That's a recent innovation and a pretty good one. Its a bit of artistic license, and saves a whole lot of messing around with macros.


At least change the name and icon..........Call it deflective armor or something.........gah.
90 Draenei Shaman
15090
Icy Floes is pretty balanced because of it's limited charges and having a cooldown.

Scorch is broken op.

Incinerate with the 90 talent for destro locks is broken op.
9 Troll Priest
0
02/10/2014 12:42 PMPosted by Zsigmond

Scorch is broken op.

Incinerate with the 90 talent for destro locks is broken op.


Then so is lightning bolt.
90 Human Paladin
10270
02/10/2014 12:19 PMPosted by Murdina
That's a recent innovation and a pretty good one. Its a bit of artistic license, and saves a whole lot of messing around with macros.

I don't mind the artistic license so much, but Arms stance dancing and switching between offense and defense devolved from class defining to overly simplified. And why, because the devs were too lazy to bake shield swapping into the default interface? Because every DPS requires a defensive CD similar to AMS that doesn't hinder the bottom line? Just as I don't believe Arms requires Die by the Sword and shieldless Shield Wall, I don't think Divine Protection, Unending Resolve, and so on need to exist.

Every melee has the same interrupt and everyone a similar burst CD - Affliction and R. Druid, the premiere in DoT and HoT, were both given Wings. Every healer was given a magic dispel. Too many defensive cooldowns were added so no one would feel left out, I assume because the lack thereof could theoretically get them benched.

Classes should have strengths and weaknesses, and if this sometimes leads to class stacking by world first guilds then so be it. With mythic at 20 man I don't think Ret will require an interrupt. The same goes for all other raids as they're moving to flex and up to 25 players - no more bleeding edge 10 man's where everyone needs everything.

"But what about dungeons!?" Balance simply can't revolve around 5 man content. If it's sometimes a little harder for classes without an interrupt or a burst cooldown or a defensive like AMS then so be it - ideally every class should be lacking in some way and thereby break even. Strong pros and cons is a far better design than the bland equality of Cata/MoP. I don't advocate a total return to Vanilla/TBC, but rather a balance between the two philosophies: bring the player AND the class.
9 Troll Priest
0
02/10/2014 01:15 PMPosted by Hoflerette
I don't advocate a total return to Vanilla/TBC, but rather a balance between the two philosophies: bring the player AND the class.


The best iteration of WoW exists between Wrath, MoP, and BC. It's that simple.
90 Human Paladin
10270
I miss the world of Vanilla - WoW has since become too instanced and focused on the endgame, imo. TBC had great combat pacing (perhaps a little slow) and a great story. Wrath brought more specs into the endgame without sacrificing class identity.

Cata sucked. I still don't agree with the addition of (or at least implementation of) LFR. Cata is also when ability excess and class homogenization got out of hand, which would eventually peak in MoP. MoP...smoothed out holy power for Ret? I don't have much good to say about it tbh. PvP got the shaft.
90 Blood Elf Priest
5620
02/09/2014 04:44 PMPosted by Lureilyia
I think its safe to say casting while on the move has been a nightmare for the devs balance wise. I'm just curious if the general idea is that they are going to remove casting while on the move for the next expansion?


I don't think you see the new talent trees. cast on the move is still there. Also they said the changes to classes will be minor so its safe to say it will still be here.
90 Draenei Shaman
17435
02/10/2014 12:17 PMPosted by Flatulate
The issue is that that the interrupts can't be spread so liberally because then casters won't cast.
The addition of Rebuke and Skull Bash (and probably Mind Freeze) didn't do WoW as a whole any real favors.

Basically remove or fix abilities that hurt identity, are redundant, ...
I don't agree with everything in that post, but I certainly agree with this idea.

02/10/2014 01:50 PMPosted by Hoflerette
TBC had great combat pacing
This isn't rose tinted glasses, it's true. Early Cata's pacing had some positives (the damage/healing model was pretty good overall) but it had too many other flaws.

02/10/2014 02:15 PMPosted by Turmoyl
I don't think you see the new talent trees. cast on the move is still there. Also they said the changes to classes will be minor so its safe to say it will still be here.
I think it's probably safe to say that class information we saw at Blizzcon is severely out of date and no longer relevant. I don't expect a lot of class changes, but I do expect a lot of ability removals, especially DPS cooldowns (probably some healing and tanking ones as well) and other abilities that are redundant. Instant casts/movement casting are terrible for balance.

http://windlashed.wordpress.com/2014/02/09/ability-bloat-and-what-to-prune/
MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Human Mage
10015
02/10/2014 02:15 PMPosted by Turmoyl
02/09/2014 04:44 PMPosted by Lureilyia
I think its safe to say casting while on the move has been a nightmare for the devs balance wise. I'm just curious if the general idea is that they are going to remove casting while on the move for the next expansion?


I don't think you see the new talent trees. cast on the move is still there. Also they said the changes to classes will be minor so its safe to say it will still be here.


Nobody outside of Blizzard has seen the new talent grids. We've seen the current talent grids with an extra tier grafted on for the purpose of previewing that new tier.
90 Worgen Warlock
10035
02/10/2014 12:42 PMPosted by Zsigmond
Icy Floes is pretty balanced because of it's limited charges and having a cooldown.

Scorch is broken op.

Incinerate with the 90 talent for destro locks is broken op.


Then make it so we can actually cast fel flame like the other 2 warlock specs. w/o KJC there's a # of fights where destro is just flat out unviable on in siege

And to the OP we do lost dps by taking KJC, it's called not taking AD. Infact it's quite a significant dps loss even.
90 Draenei Shaman
17435
02/10/2014 02:45 PMPosted by Oroborous
And to the OP we do lost dps by taking KJC, it's called not taking AD. Infact it's quite a significant dps loss even.
Right, but I think the point is that the ability to have so much casting while moving is the primary contributor to ranged in general being preferred over melee in general. That includes KJC.

Warlocks without KJC may fall from being the undisputed champions of damage dealers on every fight in WoD to having very occasional competitors from other classes.
Edited by Ashunera on 2/10/2014 2:55 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Paladin
17360
02/10/2014 02:15 PMPosted by Turmoyl
I don't think you see the new talent trees. cast on the move is still there.


No one has seen the talent trees blizzcon had zero work put in on them they just added 100 talents on the live talents. We have to wait for beta to know anything at all on this.

02/10/2014 02:45 PMPosted by Oroborous
Then make it so we can actually cast fel flame like the other 2 warlock specs. w/o KJC there's a # of fights where destro is just flat out unviable on in siege


The answer isn't to make destro better its to make the others worse too. If you haven't been reading the tweets they think locks are op and not just talking about dmg its the total package. They said they plan to bring them in line in wod. What they plan for other classes I don't know but they have made those comments on locks.

Classes shouldn't be good for every fight, classes should have weakness and strengths. In wrath raiding it worked good some fights were good for range, some for melee, some for both some for none. But they can only do that if classes have real weaknesses. The player base now thinks they need to be the best for every fight and have a tool for everything and that's whats made this mess and pve and pvp.
Edited by Divine on 2/10/2014 3:09 PM PST
Community Manager
Casting on the move is something we've talked about a lot, and we're definitely making some changes along those lines. I don't have any details I can share at this point, but I can at least give some insight into our thinking.

We like casting on the move, but not as a default. Spiritwalker's Grace is a good example of something we like; used intelligently, it can be very strong, and it feels good to use. On the other hand, Lightning Bolt always being castable on the move we're less excited about. You don't feel smart or skilled for using Lightning Bolt while you're moving, it's just sort of a free bonus that we're not sure is really needed.

Things like Kil'Jaeden's Cunning fall somewhere in the middle. The effect is similar to Lightning Bolt in that it's always active and you don't really have to think about it. However, you are effectively giving up either Archimonde's Darkness or Mannoroth's Fury in order to take it. Whether or not that's enough of a tradeoff is something we're discussing, but we have seen a lot more Warlocks giving up KJC for something else since Patch 5.4.

It's also important to note that the ability to use a cast-time spell while moving is only part of the issue. In fact, while there's only a couple of classes that can do that, almost everyone has some number of instant cast spells they can use while moving. To really start shoring up the differences here, we need to reduce the number of instant cast spells as well. That includes healers.

We're still iterating rapidly on all of this, so anything can change at any point, but that's what we're currently thinking.
90 Orc Shaman
17535
Looks good! Always thought Lightning bolt on the move wasn't needed for enhance, would be a fun talent for resto/ele though
90 Dwarf Hunter
10965
Casting while moving is the result of the ridiculous arms race the game has been suffering for the past years.

Blizzard is giving classes more and more spells to counter their weaknesses (and to sell more). And now they realize the game is extremely bloated with that were not really needed in the first place if they had put some thought into designing abilities instead of just thinking about how to sell more.

But hey, this game is a business just like everything else.
90 Tauren Druid
13000
As long as you don't kill resto druids we're fine. Healing on the move with instants is one of the best things that we bring to the table.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
2010
I think casting while moving detracts from the feeling of actually casting spells. That combined with the enormous proliferation of instant cast spells in the last expansion has made the casting classes feel much more bland and diminished some of their flavor.

Lightning Bolt and KJC especially feel very gimmicky to me. I understand these classes had problems with DPS while moving, but I do not agree with these solutions. Personally, I enjoy when different specs and classes have little niches, certain areas where they excel and others where they are lacking. I think DPS during movement was one of those areas, until it was "corrected."
90 Blood Elf Paladin
0
02/10/2014 03:04 PMPosted by Lore
Casting on the move is something we've talked about a lot, and we're definitely making some changes along those lines. I don't have any details I can share at this point, but I can at least give some insight into our thinking.

We like casting on the move, but not as a default. Spiritwalker's Grace is a good example of something we like; used intelligently, it can be very strong, and it feels good to use. On the other hand, Lightning Bolt always being castable on the move we're less excited about. You don't feel smart or skilled for using Lightning Bolt while you're moving, it's just sort of a free bonus that we're not sure is really needed.

Things like Kil'Jaeden's Cunning fall somewhere in the middle. The effect is similar to Lightning Bolt in that it's always active and you don't really have to think about it. However, you are effectively giving up either Archimonde's Darkness or Mannoroth's Fury in order to take it. Whether or not that's enough of a tradeoff is something we're discussing, but we have seen a lot more Warlocks giving up KJC for something else since Patch 5.4.

It's also important to note that the ability to use a cast-time spell while moving is only part of the issue. In fact, while there's only a couple of classes that can do that, almost everyone has some number of instant cast spells they can use while moving. To really start shoring up the differences here, we need to reduce the number of instant cast spells as well. That includes healers.

We're still iterating rapidly on all of this, so anything can change at any point, but that's what we're currently thinking.


I think it's an interesting dilemma. On one hand, I definitely see the reasoning behind drastically limiting things like casting on the move, on the other hand - sometimes making big changes to combat mechanics can be an evolutionary step rather than a negative one. The game is still outstanding after all this time, but I think it's important to always be thinking about keeping things fresh and moving forward rather than rolling back X point in the game (e.g. BC, WotLK, whatever) where there wasnt as much freedom. It's certainly a difficult balance to strike. For whatever reason (likely because of games like GW2 to an extent), I always think about that when discussing casting while on the move and developing more ground targeted abilities rather than direct casts.
90 Draenei Shaman
12405
This is going to sound two-faced but I think Ele Shaman needs it for lightning bolt, but that it should also be removed from the game as much as possible. Without LB on the move, Ele shaman would suffer a big nerf to an already relatively weak single target class.

That said if they removed it from everyone, I wouldn't be too unhappy. Kripp made a comment once that he was thinking about returning to WoW at one point and then saw they made steady shot castable on the move and he thought something along the lines of "lol wtf casuals."

I think there needs to be more separation between people who play intelligently by positioning themselves intelligently, moving intelligently, etc. Casting on the moves help to turn this game into a whack a mole DPS with very little difference between good and bad players.
60 Human Death Knight
900
02/10/2014 03:04 PMPosted by Lore
we need to reduce the number of instant cast spells as well.


Yes, please.
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