Ret PvP: As bad as it sounds? Yes

100 Draenei Death Knight
17720
I know what people will say, I've heard all the arguments:

-'You're doing it wrong!'
-'It really boils down to skill!'
-'Ret is in the best place it's been for years!'
-'It's about using the right moves at the right time!'
etc etc etc...

But what if that's not the case? What if these excuses are in fact simple denial of what most classes have long known: that Retribution just isn't very good at PvP? What if no matter what you do, nothing can change the fact that Retribution is just inferior in too many departments to others in a PvP environment?

When you really look at it, Retribution has perhaps the most limited and bland toolset of all the melee DPS in WoW. Whereas Warriors, Monks, DKs, Feral Druids and even Enh Shaman have methods to put pressure on healers outside of simple damage, Retribution has literally nothing. When it comes to fighting casters, Retribution has nothing to slow casting or silence, just damage and slightly higher mobility than some other DPS which is hardly unique anymore.

Not only that, Retribution remains perhaps the easiest melee to counter with hard CC like Fears/Stuns etc since they lack any breaks outside of a 2.5/5 min CD that halves their damage for the duration, essentially CCing themselves while most other classes have multiple means to break hard CC AND soft CC like snares/roots without such a drastic damage loss.

I know, you can't fight like a Warrior as a Ret Paladin. But if you can't act like a front line damage dealer, what more are you than someone who can only accomplish something if the oppossing team is full of fools while you piggyback off of more effective DPS? Retribution is not a predator, it's a scavenger who can only kill something far weaker than it, much dumber than it, or with significant help from the abilities of real DPS which it alone does not possess.

Look at the DPS CDs, Retribution is the most recognizable when it comes to bursting with the wings essentially telling the entire world 'Hey look! I'm about to burst someone!' This kind of pressure is more proof of bad design as it is entirely reliant on your opponents not seeing it a mile awhile and using something like Deterrence/hitting you with a hard CC you have no counters to, or simply running away. People will say at this point that is the real skill in Retribution by trying to trick your opponents into using such counters at the wrong time, but is it really good design if any CC/Iceblock can render it useless and you have to rely on a dispeller to otherwise make it work? No other melee has so much of their damage in CDs and they have a much easier time applying pressure, so is it really about skill or is it simply bad design?

Bottom line, Retribution is still very much a defensive support DPS and cannot stand toe to toe with others or fill any of their roles.

So what would Retribution need to be a predator instead of a scavenger? Several things to start:

-Have it lose some of it's defensive utility like HoS and possibly HoP to truly break it away from the defensive stance.

-In place of these, add offensive based abilities like Eye for an Eye that could act similar to Karma and perhaps a Holy Power attack called Seraphim Strike that would cause healing to the target/outgoing damage from the target to be staggered slightly and the Paladin healed for a portion of the amount staggered.

In this way, Ret Paladin would have legitimately dangerous abilities casters would need to pay attention to as well as a means to pressure healing specs without outside help from other better equipped DPS.

-Add a class-based hard CC break such as a reitteration of WotLK HoF stun or Fear breaking, with a CD attached to the use thereof so the CC break can only be used after the duration to prevent abuse thru abilities like Clemency. As well, this break would only affect the Paladin himself and could not be applied to others, though the standard HoF effect would be granted to them as before.

In this way, Retribution would have a means to operate outside of dispellers and have more opportunities to bring it's CD damage to bear without being diverted so easily as it currently is.

-Get rid of SoJ permanently and instead institute a passive in it's ability slot called Chains of Justice which would cause the Ret Paladin's Judgement to snare targets for the standard duration similar to how Feral's Infected Wounds works. A Major Glyph could also be added that could root the target if Judged past a set number of yards.

Retribution needs a ranged snare variation over a melee as it does not have an instantaneous means to close gaps like all other melee aside from Shaman, hence their ranged Frost Shock. As well, SoJ represents a noticeable DPS loss over Truth making the entire system very inefficient and ill-suited to a melee DPS like Retribution. Finally, giving Judgement the ability to snare would make it more difficult to kite Retribution when they no longer have to rely on a melee snare, something Retribution currently has noticeable trouble with with the loss of the Burden of Guilt talent.

-Consider giving Retribution a means to burst outside of straight CDs such as a Killing Machine type talent. For example, when Art of War procs it could also increase the critical strike chance of Exorcism or Templar's Verdict by 100%.

This way, Retribution has a chance to be dangerous outside of straight CDs and have a better chance at standing toe to toe with other frontline melee DPS.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Ultimately, it would only take a few tweaks in a few areas to rid Retribution of the ball and chain which is defensive support and turn it into a front line PvP DPS instead of a scavenger who can only kill something someone else has already crippled for them.
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Paladin
19915
Male draenei complains that he can't faceroll and the game is too hard, makes really bad suggestions that would destroy everything ret has evolved into over the years and turn it into a DK, news at 11.
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Paladin
20945
02/12/2014 01:54 PMPosted by Randarion
But what if that's not the case?


Have you put serious thought into.. what if it really is?

I mean, it's not like there aren't visible issues on your ret.
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Death Knight
17720
Male BE violently reacts to any insinuation that Retribution needs help, devolves to charcter attacks and buries head in sand in abject denial.

Now to Paulie for weather, what's the weather looking like Paulie?

Paulie: SPACE WEATHER!

Thanks Paulie.
Reply Quote
26 Worgen Mage
13345
If i wanted to play like a dk or warrior i'll roll one. Leave rets alone.
Reply Quote
100 Human Paladin
16290
Unsure why comparisons are always brought up to change us to play more like X class

We're Paladins, we shouldnt play like Warriors or DKs. If we did then whats the point of our class?
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Death Knight
17720
02/12/2014 02:11 PMPosted by Chaz
Unsure why comparisons are always brought up to change us to play more like X class

We're Paladins, we shouldnt play like Warriors or DKs. If we did then whats the point of our class?


I never said I wanted to turn them into said classes, nor would most of the changes do that. You would still have to balance your abilities the same way, the only difference is you would have actual options in different situations. Right now Retribution has too limited a toolset to really be considered a competetive DPS, a major reason as to why they are still nigh unseen on RBGs and outclassed so often in PvP, with most teams electing to go with different DPS as they have consistently better pressure, more utility, and more tools to break out of CC.

I have nothing against Paladin, I love Retribution, but it's lack of tools and options just don't cut it in the current PvP environment.
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Paladin
19915
02/12/2014 02:08 PMPosted by Randarion
Male BE violently reacts to any insinuation that Retribution needs help, devolves to charcter attacks and buries head in sand in abject denial.

Excuse me tentacle friend, the only thing that should be buried here is your belief that ret itself is the problem. Ret isn't perfect by any means but 90% of the problem is you, guaranteed.
Reply Quote
26 Worgen Mage
13345
Actually Agin, we all live together in lobster's basement. It gets pretty moist but rent's cheap you know?
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Paladin
19915
Hey Agin how's my fanfic coming along? You haven't posted in a while -- I hope that means you've been busy writing!
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Death Knight
17720
I know, it's the player not the spec right? The thing is Lobster, I've seen other classes and Paladins say that ever since Vanilla. 'No we don't need a sprint to close distance, just LoS baddie!' No we don't need a snare, we can catch people just fine, stop being bad!' The arguments are almost endless, but the problem remains the same.

Can Retribution PvP? Certainly. Can it compete decently? Somewhat. The problem keeps boiling down to other DPS just being better equipped in more areas and in more situations than Retribution; the game has evolved, but Retribution is still fighting with archiac tools that no longer level the playing field.

You're absolutely correct that Retribution takes skill to really shine, but as bright as it can shine, it will always be outshone by most everyone else. No matter how skillful you may be, there are just too many situations that must be left to chance or fate where others have the tools to make their own fate. Consequently, Ret Paladins must play significantly better than other players in order to level the playing field as their utility is too small and ill-suited as melee DPS to stand against equally skilled players.

As a Ret Paladin who has been able to reach this summit of skill, you should be rightly proud of the immense skill necessary to get you to that point. But you must also be willing to recognize a fundamental truth: that with a different melee DPS, you could do the same far more easily and efficiently.

There's no shame in acknowledging this. Be proud of that skill, but also be aware that working that much harder than other classes for the same reward points to Retribution as lacking in more areas than it should or needs to be. Filling those gaps does not diminish your skill, it only brings you up to par with everyone else.
Reply Quote
100 Human Paladin
4545
Take any other class with any equally skilled player with full CDs and that Ret will lose.

I will admit one thing. As Ret has gotten worse against the other classes it's actually made me a better player.

It has forced me to be more creative and use other variables to my advantage. It has taught me to better kite, to run away better, to move in and out and pick my spots better. It has also taught me to use my cds more judiciously because I might need them 20 seconds later. Running away is no longer an embarrassment, it's part of the Ret Toolkit

Face it...Blizz will never allow us to be good or even decent. But we can try to maximize our sad toolkit through our own initiative
Edited by Agincourt on 2/12/2014 3:02 PM PST
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Paladin
19915
02/12/2014 03:01 PMPosted by Agincourt
Face it...Blizz will never allow us to be good or even decent. But we can try to maximize our sad toolkit through our own initiative

Or you can do us all the favor of rerolling finally. :>
Reply Quote
26 Worgen Mage
13345
02/12/2014 03:01 PMPosted by Agincourt
Take any other class with any equally skilled player with full CDs and that Ret will lose.


First of all this is a team game, pvp is balanced in 3s and not 2s or bgs. Second, if you lose to a frost DK then i don't know what to say.
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Death Knight
17720
02/12/2014 03:08 PMPosted by Hotdoge
02/12/2014 03:01 PMPosted by Agincourt
Take any other class with any equally skilled player with full CDs and that Ret will lose.


First of all this is a team game, pvp is balanced in 3s and not 2s or bgs. Second, if you lose to a frost DK then i don't know what to say.


So being wiped across the floor one on one by practically any other DPS is balanced because they just take longer doing it in 3s? Doesn't seem very balanced to me.

And a Frost Dk isn't a pushover friend.
Reply Quote
100 Human Paladin
4545
02/12/2014 03:07 PMPosted by Lobster
02/12/2014 03:01 PMPosted by Agincourt
Face it...Blizz will never allow us to be good or even decent. But we can try to maximize our sad toolkit through our own initiative

Or you can do us all the favor of rerolling finally. :>
Ret belongs to all of us, just not you.

If you have low standards then that's on you, not me
Reply Quote
100 Human Paladin
4545
02/12/2014 03:08 PMPosted by Hotdoge
02/12/2014 03:01 PMPosted by Agincourt
Take any other class with any equally skilled player with full CDs and that Ret will lose.


First of all this is a team game, pvp is balanced in 3s and not 2s or bgs. Second, if you lose to a frost DK then i don't know what to say.
But it's OK to lose to the other ten classes LOL.

Frost DK is your argument? LOLOLOLO
Reply Quote
100 Human Paladin
16290
02/12/2014 03:54 PMPosted by Agincourt
02/12/2014 03:07 PMPosted by Lobster
...
Or you can do us all the favor of rerolling finally. :>
Ret belongs to all of us, just not you.

If you have low standards then that's on you, not me


Agin, you constantly complain that we're not warriors, and constantly lavish praise on the Warrior class.

Why havent you rolled one yet if you think they're so good, and you believe Blizzard wont ever do anything for paladins to bring them up to your standards?
Reply Quote
100 Human Paladin
4545
<span class="truncated">...</span>Ret belongs to all of us, just not you.

If you have low standards then that's on you, not me


Agin, you constantly complain that we're not warriors, and constantly lavish praise on the Warrior class.

Why havent you rolled one yet if you think they're so good, and you believe Blizzard wont ever do anything for paladins to bring them up to your standards?
I have never complained we are not warriors. So, your premise is wrong

I have a level 55 Warrior alt.

Blizzard has repeatedly said that "Ret is fine". GC said last year that "Rets are whiners". We receive improvements, yet they are less than what other classes receive. So, while we are better than we have ever been we are more behind than we have ever been
Edited by Agincourt on 2/12/2014 4:09 PM PST
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]