Why do I feel guilty trying to be Ret?

90 Troll Mage
7845
Sorry I'm not posting on my pally. Can't seem to switch characters.

I've had my paladin since vanilla. In fact it's my original toon. It's gone through some race/name changes over the years and hasn't been my main since Wrath but I still have it. Despite trying to play ret in vanilla (lol) I've never actually played it as my main spec and have only used it for soloing and the occasional foray into PvP. For some reason playing ret always makes me feel selfish, as if other people are going to criticize me saying "Why play a mediocre DPS spec when you're class is capable of being a much better tank or healer?"

I know I shouldn't care what other people think or say but I kind of feel this way too. Despite having wanted to smash and smite while swinging a giant 2hander since the early days of the game I always feel like I'd be serving the raid better by playing the stronger healing and tanking specs of the class. I don't think ret is bad per se, but every time I've checked up on it since Cata it's always been middle of the road DPS at best, while prot and holy are almost always very solid (I believe holy has had some "meh" moments, but prot has always been considered strong afaik).

Anyone else feel this way or am I just being stupid? I'm probably just being stupid..
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90 Night Elf Druid
7145
I have the same problem. I still keep a ret spec to mess around with in BGs. If I'm doing anything outside of that, I'm holy or prot.

I think it mainly stems from my hatred of hybrid classes that soak up the dps queues when they could be useful and tank and or heal...but my main is a pure.
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90 Draenei Paladin
9540
02/18/2014 06:58 PMPosted by Leesque
I think it mainly stems from my hatred of hybrid classes that soak up the dps queues when they could be useful and tank and or heal


This logic doesn't hold. If the player wanted to deeps they'd do it regardless of the class. Even as another class they'd be queueing as damage anyway.

A hybrid queuing as damage is functionally no different than a pure queuing as damage. I don't see how they're taking up more space vs a pure class' damage queue.

I additionally fail to see why you put such a heavy emphasis on LFG queues anyway.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
18820
Because you don't go out of your way to make people feel bad by beating them with your "mediocre" spec.
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59 Worgen Mage
6800
If you think Ret is fun, that should be motivation in itself to play the spec. Try not to let guilt get in the way of your fun, just because Ret has lower DPS than other classes and requires a little more effort, doesn't mean that good players can't pull off some amazing numbers.

You will find that it's rather satisfying to be good at an underdog spec. For example, Mages are supposed to beat Paladins in a duel due to statistical facts. When you defeat a Mage as a Paladin who knows this, it's kinda fun to find out what they were doing wrong or just rage at you or the game. I'm not proud of making people mad, but it's still ok to poke fun. :)

I'm getting a bit sidetracked here. If you wanted maximum DPS (I'm assuming you're doing PvE) and ONLY maximum DPS, then Ret isn't the best spec for the job, it would be better to roll an Assassination Rogue or Destruction Warlock. Not only do these classes do good DPS, but they have other DPS specs as well, instead of a tank and healer spec like Paladin has, meaning you don't feel guilty for not being a tank or healer. Get what I'm saying?
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90 Undead Warlock
10130
I've played my Ret Paladin through MoP and have done quite a bit of raiding with him. As I continue to get him more gear, currently 535, I find myself pulling more dps and using my hand spells and tossing a few instant heals here and there.

In essence, I dps and contribute by doing multiple things at once to help the tank take less damage, give the group a buff for a few seconds that lowers their damage intake, I use all of my instant heals to snag someone who is hurting which helps the healers out, I use my hands spells when people get slowed or a dps/healer catches aggro. In all, my dps may not be top of the pack but what I lack in dps I make up for with the amount I can contribute to my group by filling in little roles to help everyone out.

In all, Ret is fine. Anyone who tells you it's bad has 0 clue what they're talking about and probably fail horribly at playing a Paladin themselves. In the hands of a skilled player a Paladin can really shine, heck, any class can. If you like it then continue playing it. I still do and love Rets playstyle.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
16915
Let me explain something to you. Unless you're a hardcore, progression-oriented, world-first type raider, it doesn't matter what spec you play. Ok, it matters a little, but it matters in the sense that it matters whether you're hungry when you raid. Ergo, not much.

You're not competing for world firsts. I can't armory you at the moment due to some bug, though your WoWprogress page says you've not killed a single NM boss. I'm not trying to insult you by demeaning your progress. I'm pointing out that for you, the idea that you're better off "bringing another class to the raid" is meaningless.

It is middle of the pack DPS when you're surrounded by other competent, excellent players. In my raid, with geared and skilled locks, mages, ferals, I'm not going to top the meters on my Ret OS. But when I join a pug, I'm ahead of the other players by a huge margin. And if I had their gear score, I'd STILL be ahead of most if not all of them. So this idea that you cannot compete in DPS is wrong and applies only to circumstances where you're with great and geared players. The biggest contributor to your damage is personal skill. The amount of players who want to play a faceroll class so it'll make their DPS lives easier is staggering, and it's amazing that Blizzard has allowed it to happen on warlocks for an entire expansion.

The same reasoning applies for PvP. You're doing random battlegrounds, not Arena and rated BGs, and in fact Rets are awesome in randoms because Rets thrive in chaos. And what's a random battleground if not chaos? You run in a group, pop CDs, and blow everyone up. They try to chase you and you Emancipate/HoF/Bubble back to reinforcements. It's a total blast to be honest provided your group's not atrocious.

You act like there's no reason to DPS over heal or tank, like every role is in equal demand. Well, how about these obvious reasons: you might be a terrible tank, and maybe you can't heal your way out of Scholomance. Maybe your raid team already has its tanks and healers set, so you going tank would be redundant and healer pointless.
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50 Human Warlock
4555
Ret was (with some exceptions) and is WoW Hard Mode and I'm okay with that. But, it isn't a spec you can be casual about and still be solid with it, you have to give it your blood and tears. You will probably sacrifice a peripheral or two as well.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
5560
I'm sorry...I disagree.

I started raiding on 1-1-14.

My group is 13/14 10 man normal and we are working on Garrosh.

I pull top DPS the majority of the time.

When I made my paladin..I fell in love with the play style..just something about swinging a huge two handed weapon around murdering fools as a light bringing holy warrior gets my blood flowing.

I didn't care what all the charts and stuff said. I very rarely run by the dummies at the shrine without stopping to work on my rotation.

If you want to pull proper numbers with a class it can be done if you put forth enough effort and practice to learn the small details.
Edited by Justicàr on 2/19/2014 5:38 AM PST
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50 Human Warlock
4555
02/19/2014 05:32 AMPosted by Justicàr
Please don't come here and bash on Paladins if you cannot play it correctly.


I don't think anyone did?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11835
ret is beautiful but not strong at all in MOP, definitely more challenging than a fdk or arms warrior for sure, but still easy enough to help with the raid cds, we are a good multi tool, great for thok (thank you clemency)
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11835
and yes we can be strong i suppose justicar, but not gonna be touching frost mages anytime soon
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90 Dwarf Paladin
5560
02/19/2014 05:34 AMPosted by Galbatorïx
Please don't come here and bash on Paladins if you cannot play it correctly.


I don't think anyone did?


Fixed.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
5560
02/19/2014 05:38 AMPosted by Elemirre
and yes we can be strong i suppose justicar, but not gonna be touching frost mages anytime soon


If you took two people who were just awesome at their class. Loved it, knew everything about it..knew all the little details between each class...I would say yeh...the Frost Mage should win.

It's designed to win by nature. It's a pure dps class.

I promise you a properly played ret pally is well worth bringing to raid.
Edited by Justicàr on 2/19/2014 5:41 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
18820
02/19/2014 05:41 AMPosted by Justicàr
It's designed to win by nature. It's a pure dps class.


That hasn't been true since BC, they're not designed to win (and currently don't) just by virtue of not being a hybrid. Top specs are top specs due to flukes of design more than anything.
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90 Troll Mage
7845
I apologize if it seemed like I was bashing ret. That wasn't my intention at all. My pally was the first toon I ever made and got to 60 back in vanilla and it has a special place in my heart.

I guess I've just always carried this stigma with me because I tried to play ret in vanilla and got so much !@#$ for it, and I assume a lot of people still carry that stigma against ret. I'm trying to find a new guild I can raid with since I haven't been able to raid consistently with my current one since dragon soul due to work, and I feel like trying to find one as ret isn't gonna go smoothly. I don't think I've ever seen a guild advertise "looking for more DPS to fill out our raid team, need a Ret pally!".

That's not to say rets aren't wanted or nice to have, I just have this feeling I'm gonna apply to a guild as ret and they're gonna go "ehh...would you be willing to play prot/holy instead?"

Maybe I've just been playing my mage too long
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59 Worgen Mage
6800
02/19/2014 05:35 AMPosted by Elemirre
ret is beautiful but not strong at all in MOP, definitely more challenging than a fdk or arms warrior for sure, but still easy enough to help with the raid cds, we are a good multi tool, great for thok (thank you clemency)

It's arguable that Arms is harder to play than Ret. I've played it myself and I always tend to find myself rage starved... maybe I'm just bad at Warrior but I don't know.
Edited by Arrial on 2/19/2014 3:34 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
13090
02/19/2014 03:17 PMPosted by Cayse
02/19/2014 05:41 AMPosted by Justicàr
It's designed to win by nature. It's a pure dps class.


That hasn't been true since BC, they're not designed to win (and currently don't) just by virtue of not being a hybrid. Top specs are top specs due to flukes of design more than anything.

It hasn't been true by practice, but Blizzard still treats us that way.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8920
This is my main. I don't play alts and I've been playing this toon since the end of BC when I first started. I didn't raid at all, not even LFR until late Cata. My very first raid was in March of last year when I was asked to fill in for a night. I had no idea what I was doing, but I was infected with a bug that will not allow me to stop.

My current raiding team is 10/14 normal. The dps make up of the group consists of a Warrior, Rogue, Ret (me), Druid, and Hunter. We 3 heal most fights with 2 shammys and a priest, but sometimes the priest goes dps as well.

From experience with this group, with pugs I have joined on off weeks, flex runs, lfrs, etc. I would challenge any other class (pure or hybrid) of the same ilvl or close to consistently out dps me. On single target fights, the only class I have found that comes close is assassin rogue. On AoE fights, I don't expect to come in first, but I do compete. I'm usually either top or 2nd dps on single target fights in anything I run, and top 3 on AoE fights.

With all that said, you need to keep in mind OP, that RET is not, as you said a pure dps class. We are a utility class. The thing that makes us most useful isn't our dps (which is still very nice), but our ability to cleanse, our throw out a devotion aura when needed, to bubble a tank to clear stacks, or throw out a lay on hands when someone else is out of healing range. I would never change my main. Ever. I love this toon and all that I can do with it.

I'm even betting, once I finally get the tier bonuses, especially the t16 4 pc, that I may actually be able to keep up with the warrior on aoe because of the free divine storm procs. The hunter is just a different story, they are so OP that it's ridiculous.
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Ret blows but i will love it forever just QQ for buffs with me hopefully they will listen
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