Ret Paladins, abilities and feeling useful.

90 Tauren Paladin
8160
I miss my WotLK Ret Paladin (which I retired and rerolled to be a Sunwalker). It was fun, felt strong and didn't feel useless to the group. Why bring a Ret Paladin when Prot and Holy bring the same utility? We need our holy punch back so we can compete!

Remove Holy Power (HP). Period. I don't want to be a rogue and I don't want our abilities stove piped by using HP. Let us use mana again as our only resource. We could seal twist to regen mana as we get low or pop cd's to restore mana.

When Holy Power goes away we could use Exorcism as a self-heal or cast Flash of Light. Let Exo be a mana sink for a health regen trade off. Hitting the target hard, purging his soul and returning health to us on a decent cool down or unless we get an Art of War proc. A minor glyph could be used for PvE Paladins to not have Exorcism self heal.

We could honestly bake a lot of abilities together. Here are some ideas:

- Burden of Guilt glyph changed to reduce censure by 2 stacks but gaining the full use of Seal of Justice without switching seals. PvP
- Consecration returned to all specializations. Bake Light's Hammer with Consecration and Devotion Aura for example. Consecration becomes Light's Hammer if you select it as a talent. Any party/raid member standing in Consecration will be healed, immune to silence/interrupt, 20% damage reduction and enemies take dmg. That would be a huge game changer in PvP and PvE. Same long CD that Light's Hammer is already on.
- Consecration could be used with both Holy Prism and Execution Sentence in a similar way. While standing in Consecration if Holy Prism is used on an enemy, Holy Prism applies a Sacred Shield type absorption effect on friendlies. If Holy Prism is used on self/friendly than it will spread out and amplify consecrate's DoT. Execution Sentence, while standing in consecration, melee haste/mastery(whichever is the greater stat) is increases over time as the hammer falls and it pulses heals out for a percentage of the damage done with the stat buff remaining for a short period (say 10 seconds).

Our Paladin abilities could be used in so much better and fun ways. I want to feel epic and engaging again. I don't want to wait for HP to ramp up to use abilities. Let me worry about short ability CDs and mana again. Other classes should think twice before engaging us in combat. Not turn to us first because they can burn us down the easiest.

Blizz, I want to hit hard outside of CDs. Pretty please with a cherry on top.
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100 Draenei Paladin
18365
How about no to all of that, the changes you describe are horrendous and ridiculous.

Besides if you really want Blizz to see your wishlist the Paladin forum isn't the place to put it. They don't read class forums.

You'd think after all this time people would get over Holy Power already, it's not going anywhere.

While there is always room for improvement at present Ret Paladins are the best they've ever been mechanically. No great departure is needed.
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90 Tauren Paladin
8160
So inquisition is a great mechanic? Divine Protection is a great mechanic? Or Seal of Justice, our buffs, or our copy cat Holy Power? Those are all great mechanics... WoG is a joke, we hit like wet noodles outside of CDs our self defense in PvP is laughable.

Look at the main glyphs you use. What great use do they have other than say Double Jeopardy? Double Jeopardy is only good if you are switching targets. You are reducing your dmg output by using Glyph of Inquisition just so you can mindlessly hit a button less often. That's a great mechanic? Does taking 10% less damage from the Templar's Verdict glyph really help all that much in your encounters?

Think about one of the random ideas I tossed up. You cast Consecrate at the bosses feet while all of the melee are standing there with you. Then cast Execution Sentence during a boss mechanic that helps with healing while you are on the front line. Buffing yourself, healing yourself/allies and hurting your foe. That is much more dynamic than popping wings every two minutes.
Edited by Tarwahe on 2/15/2014 2:48 PM PST
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
20945
02/15/2014 02:43 PMPosted by Tarwahe
You are reducing your dmg output by using Glyph of Inquisition just so you can mindlessly hit a button less often.


You seem like you're very new, and should stop and relearn the spec fully.

Then stop and try and articulate what you actually liked previously. Saying "LK was better because this stuff we has now is bad" doesn't actually get across what you think was good about playing in LK, or what you think differentiated us from holy or prot paladins at the time. Also try and focus on what you're complaining about. You're kind of all over the place, and your gear doesn't help clarify it.
Edited by Cayse on 2/15/2014 3:00 PM PST
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100 Blood Elf Rogue
17175
02/15/2014 02:02 PMPosted by Tarwahe
Why bring a Ret Paladin when Prot and Holy bring the same utility? We need our holy punch back so we can compete!
Exactly what utility did Ret bring in Wrath that wasn't also brought by Prot and Holy back then?

Also, lots of your suggestions are complete and utter jokes. Like your consecration suggestion, what do ANY of those suggestions have to do with consecration? Nothing. All you're doing is asking for a complete revamp to the level 90 talents, ALL of which could be implemented without tying them to consecration. Not to mention the fact that you're asking to get consecration back with a minute+ cd (I say minute+ because there's no way they're just going to shorten devotion aura down to 1minute), and if you recall during Cata one of the big complaints was that consecration didn't have a 100% uptime.

Also, your last point is so laughable that it can be dismissed with a single statement: So facerolling your keyboard is a great mechanic? Because without holy power and inquisition that's all Ret would be again.
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100 Draenei Paladin
18365
02/15/2014 02:43 PMPosted by Tarwahe
So inquisition is a great mechanic?


It is a serviceable mechanic, it accomplished exactly what it was intended to accomplish. More so before it was sadly increased to a one minute duration.

On that note...

02/15/2014 02:43 PMPosted by Tarwahe
You are reducing your dmg output by using Glyph of Inquisition


Glyph of Inquisition:

When you land a killing blow on an opponent that yields experience or honor, the duration of your Inquisition is increased by 30 sec.


The glyph was changed a good while ago, that is the new function, so yeah.

02/15/2014 02:43 PMPosted by Tarwahe
Or Seal of Justice


All of our Seals could use sprucing up, room for improvement and all.

02/15/2014 02:43 PMPosted by Tarwahe
or our copy cat Holy Power?


The Holy Power system is fluid and functional. You can call it what you like but there is nothing wrong with it mechanically.

02/15/2014 02:43 PMPosted by Tarwahe
PvP is laughable.


You can argue what you like about us in PVP, perhaps buffs are needed. My point was your ridiculous suggestions are not needed because mechanically Ret is in a very good spot right now.

That means the spec functions well. Opinions on buffs or nerfs notwithstanding there is no reason to change the framework of how the spec works.

You're never getting Wrath Ret back, nor should you want it back.

02/15/2014 02:43 PMPosted by Tarwahe
Look at the main glyphs you use.


My glyphs change many times depending on what I'm doing. Raiding, running around the world, what have you. That's the great thing about glyphs.

What you see on my armory is just a default.

02/15/2014 02:43 PMPosted by Tarwahe
Does taking 10% less damage from the Templar's Verdict glyph really help all that much in your encounters?


It might not be exciting but it is quite useful.

02/15/2014 02:43 PMPosted by Tarwahe
Think about one of the random ideas I tossed up.


I'd rather not because they are just that, random. You take nothing into account as to how ridiculous such changes could and would be to overall balance.

Our glyphs are lacking those could use some love, it would also be nice if we had a touch more individual utility separate from Prot and Holy.

But to a raid group a Ret Paladin is a very powerful thing between being a solid DPS and having great utility. We're not nearly as bland as you're trying to make out.

Overall we are mechanically sound, more sound then we've been at any other time. Buffs or the like may be needed in certain areas but nothing like the overhaul you're trying to suggest.

You're unhappy with the new Ret. Well Blizzard created it in Cata and refined it in Mists and the core isn't going anywhere in WoD. If you can't grow to enjoy it then Ret just isn't for you anymore.
Edited by Cadenbrie on 2/15/2014 3:05 PM PST
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26 Worgen Mage
13345
02/15/2014 02:58 PMPosted by Pancakê
So facerolling your keyboard is a great mechanic?


I actually love it, i had my cat walk over the keyboard and did decent dps.

OP is just a stupid cow with rose tinted goggles.
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90 Human Warlock
10510
I DPS by starting with my right ear on the numpad and rolling my face until my left ear is on the Caps Lock key. And I'm okay with that.

No, but Ret is fine. It's fun. I enjoy it. I feel really useful to my group (especially during progression). How many DPS specs have as much raw utility as we do? Omnomnom.
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90 Tauren Paladin
8160
02/15/2014 02:58 PMPosted by Pancakê
Like your consecration suggestion, what do ANY of those suggestions have to do with consecration?


What I was trying to say is bring back consecration as a base spell while leveing. Then with your lvl 90 talents can be used together (while standing in consecration) for greater benefit dynamic play style. The idea of all spells/abilities being used in some combination for different effects would be a fun play style. I just picked a couple abilities and mashed them together for examples.

02/15/2014 02:58 PMPosted by Pancakê
Also, your last point is so laughable that it can be dismissed with a single statement: So facerolling your keyboard is a great mechanic? Because without holy power and inquisition that's all Ret would be again


No. Not facerolling just not stove piped by needing Holy Power for abilities.

02/15/2014 02:59 PMPosted by Cadenbrie
My glyphs change many times depending on what I'm doing. Raiding, running around the world, what have you. That's the great thing about glyphs.

What you see on my armory is just a default.


Cadenbrie your responses are awesome and very well put and I want to thank you for taking the time to debate with me. My post was intended to talk about continuing to improve the dynamics of the class and I'm not planting my flag in the sand demanding that "Blizzard change Paladins now!" I know they can't change things overnight. I'm enjoying the privilege to come to the forums and say what's on my mind.

02/15/2014 02:59 PMPosted by Cadenbrie
You're unhappy with the new Ret. Well Blizzard created it in Cata and refined it in Mists and the core isn't going anywhere in WoD. If you can't grow to enjoy it then Ret just isn't for you anymore.


and...

02/15/2014 02:55 PMPosted by Cayse
You seem like you're very new, and should stop and relearn the spec fully.


You're absolutely right. I haven't played much since WotLK. I pretty much didn't show for Cata and Mists has been a pretty close second all due to work, deployments and such. So it looks like I need to get back to the drawing board and learn to play better if I'm not playing the class to the fullest.

02/15/2014 03:04 PMPosted by Hotdoge
OP is just a stupid cow with rose tinted goggles.


Yep sure due. I had a blast then so why wouldn't I want a little of that back?
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90 Tauren Paladin
8160
02/15/2014 03:11 PMPosted by Svenya
I DPS by starting with my right ear on the numpad and rolling my face until my left ear is on the Caps Lock key. And I'm okay with that


Probably the funniest thing I've read in a while. Thanks for that :)
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100 Draenei Paladin
18365
02/15/2014 03:39 PMPosted by Tarwahe
I haven't played much since WotLK. I pretty much didn't show for Cata and Mists


Well coming into Ret now is certainly a shock from then I will grant you.

02/15/2014 03:39 PMPosted by Tarwahe
I'm not planting my flag in the sand demanding that "Blizzard change Paladins now!"


Well that's how your opening post came off, hence a lot of the backlash.

I started playing in Wrath, I loved Paladins back then just as I do now. But the changes we've been through since then have been good ones.

To many Paladins going back to any semblance of Wrath Ret is a horrifying suggestion.

Take some time to get a lay of Ret as it is now. Read some guides, brush back up on what are now the basics.

Like I said there's always room for improvement but your rework would just be harmful.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
20945
02/15/2014 03:57 PMPosted by Cadenbrie
02/15/2014 03:39 PMPosted by Tarwahe
I haven't played much since WotLK. I pretty much didn't show for Cata and Mists


Well coming into Ret now is certainly a shock from then I will grant you.


I don't think there's a spec in the game that can't say that.

It's been over three years since Cata launched, and even specs that weren't significantly overhauled for either Cata or MoP have still undergone some radical changes. Specs as simple and reliable as fire and frost mages play a fair bit different than they did in 2010.

On the plus side, he didn't have to experience 4.0 and 4.1.
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100 Draenei Paladin
18365
02/15/2014 04:17 PMPosted by Cayse
I don't think there's a spec in the game that can't say that.


Very true but it was more dramatic for some then others. The Ret transition from Wrath to Cata was pretty ground shaking compared to what other specs went though.

02/15/2014 04:17 PMPosted by Cayse
On the plus side, he didn't have to experience 4.0 and 4.1.


May no Paladin ever have to experience that again.
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90 Tauren Paladin
8160
02/15/2014 04:17 PMPosted by Cayse
On the plus side, he didn't have to experience 4.0 and 4.1.


I hung up the cloak and put the mace over the fireplace. I leveled to 85 then deactivated my account. I was very disappointed. I came back when LFR launched and did a couple DS runs on my old paladin then deactivated again. I played GW2 for a while and enjoyed that some but all of my friends stayed with WoW so I came back.
Edited by Tarwahe on 2/15/2014 5:01 PM PST
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100 Draenei Paladin
11330
You do know that Glyph of Inquisition was changed?

About HP,I never think much about it,I just run through my rotation and its ready when I need it. I'm sure at higher levels of content I would need to actually track it,but for me,using Glyph of Inq ,Ret is fairly faceroll.Just a longer roll across the keyboard than my Frost DK.

Of course I know nothing about PVP.
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100 Orc Death Knight
17925
I agree with your thread title, making retribution feel more unique would be good. The problem is there are a lot of people who want the exact opposite. They want retribution to have all of the tools they think should be standard, which basically pecks away at the possibility of them being unique. If you do it correctly you can be missing 'essential' tools if they give you a tool or an ability nobody else has. How would you feel about not having a traditional interrupt in PvP like all of the other melee classes, but actually dispel magic effects with your cleanse? That would be unique, it would feel strong but most people would probably argue an interrupt is absolutely necessary.

However, changing core fundamentals, at least combat wise would be awful. Why you would want to change holy power and your combat system is beyond me. It's very smooth and defined, and personally coming from a DK standpoint I am jealous how stats actually interact properly with retribution in general.

If you want to feel different you probably need to lose some things. People will complain but you might get some fairly unique utility back. Personally I miss the days when retribution was the only real hybrid with good solid healing capability, at least in a flash. Now everybody has a little bit of it (which is fine in small amounts, for soloing) and it really takes away some of the uniqueness that some classes use to have.

Your glyphs do in fact need work, but half of the classes out there need more functionality and more choice in their glyphs. Look at the warrior glyphs in general, it should be like that for everybody. Most classes don't have that amount of choice though, lol.
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100 Human Paladin
3935
02/15/2014 02:59 PMPosted by Cadenbrie
You're never getting Wrath Ret back, nor should you want it back.
For PvP it was like 100% times more fun imo but to each of his own.
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100 Human Paladin
14460
02/15/2014 02:02 PMPosted by Tarwahe
Remove Holy Power (HP). Period. I don't want to be a rogue and I don't want our abilities stove piped by using HP. Let us use mana again as our only resource. We could seal twist to regen mana as we get low or pop cd's to restore mana.


No. The Holy Power system is excellent in its current incarnation for Retribution. Seal twisting as a play style sucked back in TBC, and anybody who says otherwise either never actually seal twisted at the time or are wearing some impressive nostalgia goggles.

02/15/2014 02:02 PMPosted by Tarwahe
When Holy Power goes away we could use Exorcism as a self-heal or cast Flash of Light. Let Exo be a mana sink for a health regen trade off. Hitting the target hard, purging his soul and returning health to us on a decent cool down or unless we get an Art of War proc. A minor glyph could be used for PvE Paladins to not have Exorcism self heal.


We already have this. It's called Templar's Verdict or Word of Glory.

02/15/2014 02:02 PMPosted by Tarwahe
- Burden of Guilt glyph changed to reduce censure by 2 stacks but gaining the full use of Seal of Justice without switching seals. PvP


Or just remove this faceroll-easy glyph.

02/15/2014 02:02 PMPosted by Tarwahe
- Consecration returned to all specializations. Bake Light's Hammer with Consecration and Devotion Aura for example. Consecration becomes Light's Hammer if you select it as a talent. Any party/raid member standing in Consecration will be healed, immune to silence/interrupt, 20% damage reduction and enemies take dmg. That would be a huge game changer in PvP and PvE. Same long CD that Light's Hammer is already on.


Consecration sucks. Always had, always will. This silly infatuation that other Paladins have with this ancient relic of an ability is completely asinine. The best choice Blizzard could make right now is to remove it from Protection and finally banish it from the Paladin toolkit, like it should have been long ago.

Turning it into a completely overpowered anti-melee perma-Power Word: Barrier is a ridiculous suggestion.

02/15/2014 02:02 PMPosted by Tarwahe
- Consecration could be used with both Holy Prism and Execution Sentence in a similar way. While standing in Consecration if Holy Prism is used on an enemy, Holy Prism applies a Sacred Shield type absorption effect on friendlies. If Holy Prism is used on self/friendly than it will spread out and amplify consecrate's DoT. Execution Sentence, while standing in consecration, melee haste/mastery(whichever is the greater stat) is increases over time as the hammer falls and it pulses heals out for a percentage of the damage done with the stat buff remaining for a short period (say 10 seconds).


Read above.

02/15/2014 02:02 PMPosted by Tarwahe
Our Paladin abilities could be used in so much better and fun ways. I want to feel epic and engaging again. I don't want to wait for HP to ramp up to use abilities. Let me worry about short ability CDs and mana again. Other classes should think twice before engaging us in combat. Not turn to us first because they can burn us down the easiest.


This has absolutely nothing to do with Holy Power and everything to do with player skill, gear and class balance anomalies. Stop trying to attribute your poor play with the positive changes made towards the Paladin class over the past couple of years.

And stop trying to ruin my favorite class.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
18575
AREOS WHY THE CHANGE?
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100 Human Paladin
14460
02/16/2014 02:21 AMPosted by Lobster
AREOS WHY THE CHANGE?


I wanted to be the cutest cutie pie in my guild's healing core.
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