Item squish - why did you cause this problem?

83 Tauren Warrior
1855
02/28/2014 07:40 AMPosted by Slenderman
I'm just wondering what will happen next expansion.. Get bigger numbers again and then stat squish again?

Or are they just going to keep us at the same numbers for all future expansions?

Tbh, they should have lowered us down to the 5k range.

By then it won't matter because there will be just one stat and one ability across all classes. They won't show any numbers, just a colored bar. Gear that will be an improvement will show a big green checkmark next to it, gear that would be detrimental will have a red X. You won't need to worry about classes because those will be purely cosmetic anyway - when you pick up a piece of gear it will be functional for whatever class you are.
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60 Human Death Knight
900
02/28/2014 01:29 AMPosted by Seviticus
It's easy to blame someone for lacking the foresight to see a problem before it arises when you are gifted with hindsight.

My point is. They probably did not think it would be an issue


Couldnt be more wrong. Congratulations.
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81 Blood Elf Hunter
9085
02/28/2014 07:45 AMPosted by Bustemup
02/28/2014 07:40 AMPosted by Slenderman
I'm just wondering what will happen next expansion.. Get bigger numbers again and then stat squish again?

Or are they just going to keep us at the same numbers for all future expansions?

Tbh, they should have lowered us down to the 5k range.

By then it won't matter because there will be just one stat and one ability across all classes. They won't show any numbers, just a colored bar. Gear that will be an improvement will show a big green checkmark next to it, gear that would be detrimental will have a red X. You won't need to worry about classes because those will be purely cosmetic anyway - when you pick up a piece of gear it will be functional for whatever class you are.


And then, finally, PvP will be balanced and only about the individual skill of the players instead of who has the best class/spec composition and best gear.
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83 Tauren Warrior
1855
02/28/2014 07:48 AMPosted by Leggylass
And then, finally, PvP will be balanced and only about the individual skill of the players instead of who has the best class/spec composition and best gear.

LOL! You do have a point there. When all characters are the same then the only difference will be made by the player. Kind of like how NASCAR is today.
Edited by Bustemup on 2/28/2014 7:52 AM PST
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90 Goblin Shaman
5730
Probably had something to do with proportionate growth. Blizzard likely followed a formula for stat increases to eliminate much of the initial guess work, and then fine tuned the numbers after a few runs by testers and cutting edge raid groups,

Simply put... with each stat increase, further increases had to be just that much larger.

I'm looking forward to the game being crunched. I'd also like to see the earlier expansions rolled into a single distribution. That way, the exp gain could be balanced out in a way that makes the leveling experience from 1 to 90 feel like it was the original leveling spectrum.

Or have they done that already? I figured we'd eventually get to the point where that was mandatory to prevent potential buyers from feeling intimidated by the seer volume of expansions.

If they have already bundled Vanilla - Cataclysm, then they would only need to add in Mists of Pandaria and adjust the amount of exp given per quest.

I'd imagine after the stat crunch would be an opportune time to do this.
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100 Troll Druid
7775
Item squish coming in WoD, why still cry about it?

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/13107743/dev-watercooler-pruning-the-garden-of-war-2-27-2014
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11195
Some people are completely missing the point. I'm not against the item squish, at least not yet as I've never seen it in action yet. People keep going on about hindsight but I already pointed out where the devs talked about the problem back in 2011 and they made the problem worse.

So they knew about the problem but they made it worse, this is why I'm asking why they did that.
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100 Troll Rogue
18015
02/28/2014 12:53 AMPosted by Paladiñ
So we've all known this was coming, including blizzard who first made mention of it during Cata. Things are out of control and they need to do something about it.

So what did they do? near the end of WoTLK they increased our HP pools by a lot. Then in Cata we go for 30k hp to 100k - 200k HP with DPS numbers to go with it.

In MoP they went even further and tanks have over 1M HP, people are doing over 500k DPS.

This is insane, we all know that, but why did blizzard do it to begin with considering they knew for years things are getting out of control? was it to just speed up the item squish?

What's the deal blizzard, why did you give such huge increases when you knew things should have been slowed right down?

This isn't a negative thread about the item squish, I just can't work out why they went insane with the numbers to begin with when they knew there was a problem.


The reason for the big jumps in later expansions has to due with a shift in damage/healing versus health pool.

Back in WotLK, mana was basically infininte, so in order to challenge healers, raid bosses had to hit tanks hard. For example, The Lich King's soul reaper hits tanks for 50k shadow damage. Consider for a moment that tanks back then had ~45k health unbuffed.

They decided they wanted mana to matter and to give healers different abilities rather than spamming the highest hps spell without regard for mana. To do this, the damage done compared to health pool has to be smaller.

Let's fast forward 3 levels to a level 83 player/mob in uldum. At this point now we're in the transition to this smaller damage-per-health-pool damage paradigm. But the 83 player wants to feel more powerful than the level 80 player, so the 83 player needs to deal more damage. But because the damage-per-health ratio is to be smaller, this means that the mob's health pool has to increase MORE than the player's damage did. Similar logic applies to the mob's damage and the player's health pool.

Let's look at ballpark trend from WotLK - Cata - MoP:
End game level 80s: about 10-12k dps, 30k health (for a dps, about 45k health for a tank).
Pre-Raid level 85: About 20k dps, about 120k health (about 150k for a tank), 3.5-4x as much health, ~2x as much damage. (the health gap is smaller for tanks than dps simply because at level 80 you stacked stam for effective health but at 85 you stacked mitigation for healer mana)

End Game 85: about 50-60k dps, about 150k health (200k for tanks)
Pre-Raid 90: about 70-75k dps, about 350k health (400k for tanks), about 2.2x as much health and about 1.25x as much damage.

As you can see, the trend for increasing health/damage was actually smaller for MoP (and the gear item level reset was also less severe than cataclysm).

What you are noticing is simply the nature of exponential growth. the ratio remains constant. 2-4-8-16-32-64-128-256-512-1024-2048-4096-8192-16384-32768, you can see how these numbers are growing fast.
Edited by Shadowvenom on 2/28/2014 2:12 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Hunter
5045
02/28/2014 07:40 AMPosted by Slenderman
I'm just wondering what will happen next expansion.. Get bigger numbers again and then stat squish again?

Or are they just going to keep us at the same numbers for all future expansions?

Tbh, they should have lowered us down to the 5k range.


That's what I'm thinking too. I haven't seen anything about the item squish that suggests that this is anything but a hold over until we are at this point again. Which is fine, since it seems like a genuinely unavoidable problem outside coming up with a more complicated, non-gear related way of differentiating different raid tiers.

But if they're going to squish it SQUIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIISH it. Else the QQ will be back in 4 years leading into WoW: Hemet's Biggest Game
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90 Orc Warlock
5075
The problem with WoW is that it was one of the first MMO's that created the problem that when a new expansion launches it completely negates ALL content prior to it.

MMO's Pre-WoW were not like this. Gear could be useful for multiple expansions sometimes up to 3 or even 4 expansions later people would still be using old gear.

The reason for this was:

A) Gear was much much harder to come by. You might get lucky to replace a single item every few months. Now we can replace an entire set in a day or two. Yes it made progression slower, but it also made you WANT To log in to work toward making your character better. Now gear is so easily gained that I don't even feel excited when I get a new piece of gear because Ill just replace it in a few weeks or maybe a couple months. There was a time when gear was REALLY exciting because you knew you wouldn't see another item or wouldn't replace that item for months or even years.

B) Gear itself wasn't huge jumps. The end-game raid gear of one expansion to the next may only add a handful of new stat points. FOr instance if Vanilla Naxx gear gave +15 Strength then Vanilla BT gear would have been +25 str. This meant that while old gear wasn't as good as new gear, it didn't completely make old gear (Or content irrelevant). There was a time when guilds used to not only farm the CURRENT tier of gear, but would also farm gear from previous expansions because it was still viable for alts/new members.

Unfortunately WoW completely did away with this with BC and made the gear jump between expansions so significant that all previous content becomes irrelevant.

That is a problem imo.
Edited by Xanthule on 2/28/2014 2:39 PM PST
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They wanted player power to take a significant jump from expansion to expansion, because they knew that initially upon an expansion's release, they would get a huge amount of raid geared players that would trivialize the new expansion zones instantly if they didn't. But they also knew that the zones would have to do-able for people starting them in questing greens from the previous expansion.

So it's really important to do this every expansion, but becomes less important later on when that content is no longer relevant. Put it this way: It mattered back in 2009 that Borean Tundra felt like a big power increase than Shadowmoon Valley, even though they're both the same level zones. Now in 2014, that doesn't matter anymore but the stat increase is still there. So now they're readjusting it all. It was pretty much inevitable.
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100 Human Warlock
6195
As far as I know, the reason for the huge increases in player power are twofold:

-So that even heroic raiders can feel like they are gaining power during the leveling up process in a new expansion, and
-So that getting gear in a new raiding tier feels substantial.
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Community Manager
02/28/2014 12:53 AMPosted by Paladiñ
This is insane, we all know that, but why did blizzard do it to begin with considering they knew for years things are getting out of control?


In simple terms: getting upgrades feels good. An exponential curve of player power inflation via item levels is fully understood and expected as getting loot that is better than your current loot is much of the tangible reward structure in the game. There is a "How much better does it need to be to feel like an upgrade?" factor, and while those specifics have changed over the years the philosophy remains the same. We could change how the game works, and your character's progression could be rewarded in other ways, but World of Warcraft is kind of all about being an awesome hero and slaying giant dragons to take their sweet loots. Regardless of the rate of inflation it is still inflation if people's gear is getting better, and we'll end up at a squish sooner or later if the inflation is having an unmitigatable effect. In this case it took about 10 years to get there. :)
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90 Night Elf Hunter
12600
...a squish every 10 years is fine with me.
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100 Pandaren Monk
18885
02/28/2014 02:59 PMPosted by Bashiok
02/28/2014 12:53 AMPosted by Paladiñ
This is insane, we all know that, but why did blizzard do it to begin with considering they knew for years things are getting out of control?


In simple terms: getting upgrades feels good. An exponential curve of player power inflation via item levels is fully understood and expected as getting loot that is better than your current loot is much of the tangible reward structure in the game. There is a "How much better does it need to be to feel like an upgrade?" factor, and while those specifics have changed over the years the philosophy remains the same. We could change how the game works, and your character's progression could be rewarded in other ways, but World of Warcraft is kind of all about being an awesome hero and slaying giant dragons to take their sweet loots. Regardless of the rate of inflation it is still inflation if people's gear is getting better, and we'll end up at a squish sooner or later if the inflation is having an unmitigatable effect. In this case it took about 10 years to get there. :)


I would argue that it started with Ulduar back in 2008. You guys did not realize (at the time) the effect of hard modes being introduced would increase the inflation of the the item level of gear and thus we had item level gear higher than originally intended by the time we were killing the Lich King. Due to that, in order for the mid-level questing gear in cata (particularly during Deepholm and Ulduum questing zones) to be relevant for those Lich King geared people to start using the new gear, you drastically increased the item level even further and it just got worse ever since.
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80 Draenei Shaman
6510
I think with every expansion should come a small item squish. I think it's a good idea to have everything scale in a linear motion until the new expansion and the last expansion. It'd give newer content that 'holy crap, those numbers are big" feel to them, while not allowing any excess number explosions.

EX: when WoD comes out, I think mists and WoD should scale exponentially, and everything from Cata and below be linear. And when w/e comes out after WoD comes out, it and WoD should be exponential, while dropping Mists back in line with the linear power progression.

That's the best idea I've come up with anyways, I think it'd be a decent way to go about it without causing TOO MUCH confusion
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100 Human Warrior
15610
I support the squish.
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