Dark Sim Has Too High a Skillcap

80 Blood Elf Death Knight
2465
They're both cooldowns used to help you survive and do similar things. I compared them because one is wasted unless it's being used by a leet video game master, and the other is useful for even the most casual pvpers.

you mad? :[

Casters go through the same thing with juking. Is this guy terrible? Is he good? If he's terrible, I don't juke and risk getting interrupted by his slow reflexes anyway. If he's good and I don't juke, i get interrupted in .3 seconds into my cast. It's the facts of PVP outside of competetive environment where you can safely presume your opponent is good.


You seemed to have missed my point.

I was saying that even the most experienced PvPers are going to screw up with DS and if THEY have troubles with it, how are casual pvpers going to any kind of use out of DS?? I don't care that DS is subject to human error/whim; what I mind is that the ability has a "You must be this leet to use me" sign attached to it.





Edited by Valkyrii on 12/1/2010 4:53 PM PST
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100 Human Paladin
6070
They're both cooldowns used to help you survive and do similar things. I compared them because one is wasted unless it's being used by a leet video game master, and the other is useful for even the most casual pvpers.

you mad? :[


Assuming casual pvp'ers are playing other casual pvp'ers they could be getting similar/the same results. CP:A (Casual pvp'er A) uses DS and CP:B doesn't notice the debuff in time and casts devouring plague instead of levitate. There a nice new dot for the dk.

EDIT: I'm not mad
Edited by Fridays on 12/1/2010 4:50 PM PST
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100 Draenei Shaman
16595
I suppose I'm the only one who immediately thought of Perfect Dark with this title.
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85 Draenei Shaman
3545
Dark simulacrum isn't useless without other cooldowns to use. It also isn't useless if you don't steal your enemy's super awesome cooldown; damage or healing is damage or healing.

Also, anything that raises the skill cap is usually a good thing.
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85 Orc Warrior
4400
Usually the only people that do things you do not expect are noobs. Just tossin that out there.


I've almost lost duels to the WORST rogues (on my rogue) because they just don't do things a normal rogue would do at specific times (Pre patch, like not trinketing, blinding at random times, and my favorite, the rogues that gouge off of blind instead of restealthing, so I trinket and they accidentally gouge it, then back pedal away and white hit me out of it). I hate fighting bad players because of that.

Casters go through the same thing with juking. Is this guy terrible? Is he good? If he's terrible, I don't juke and risk getting interrupted by his slow reflexes anyway. If he's good and I don't juke, i get interrupted in .3 seconds into my cast. It's the facts of PVP outside of competetive environment where you can safely presume your opponent is good.


Haha and then there's this. Pump fake 2 healing surges or polymorphs, and he's SO slow on it he gets the first .01 seconds of my third.
Edited by Såje on 12/1/2010 5:32 PM PST
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85 Draenei Shaman
9780

DS requires you to know what you’re opponent is going to do before he even does it.

This is the same amount of skill required in using spell reflect or grounding totem.
Edited by Orcheon on 12/1/2010 6:32 PM PST
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81 Human Paladin
2895
I'm amazed that people would want to make this game even easier than it already is.

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85 Undead Warlock
3245
Deathknighs dont need more noob friendly abilities... DK's are just now barly recovering from the nightmares of "new tanks" and other skill less nonsense that destroyed the image of a class that has alot of potential to be used well by quick reaction time players. DS is just another necessary step for the class to help draw the line between skill levels.
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85 Blood Elf Warlock
3185
If it would lock out the ability, the dk stole, from the other player, then that would rock.
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2 Dwarf Hunter
0
That's rubbish - spell reflect is on such a short cooldown that warriors can afford to "waste" it on smaller spells simply to take advantage of the defensive nature of the ability.

The fact is that if you make a mistake with spell reflect, you have to wait a few seconds to do it again, if you make a mistake with Dark Sim then that's it for another minute (at which point the fight will probably be over).

DKs didn't need another ability that requires clairvoyance - our defensive abilities have been nerfed so far and so hard that we are now one of the easiest targets to burn (I have a mage and a hunter), and it's trivial to make a DK waste IBF or AMS since we have to pop them preemptively.


Bad warriors will spam it. Good warriors will let, say, a frost mage spam ice lance while they have sword and board out and wait to pop it until they start actually casting something so they either waste time canceling the cast or get the ability reflected. It's on a short cooldown, but that's no excuse to waste it on something silly like an ice lance.
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80 Blood Elf Death Knight
2465
Wow I had to read the first page twice to make sure this was not some joke thread. DS is amazing and I can't wait to see how great DKs use it in tournament play.

Dark Sim is one of those abilities this game needs more of. It's a situational tool that can be game changing if used at the right time.

Example:

In one of my beta matchs I was with my paladin partner in 2v2 against mage/priest.

Match had gone for a minute or two, paladin got in bad position because he got feared by the priest, and I got rooted as the mage blinked away, and started casting poly on the paladin.

I immediately tossed Dark Sim on the mage.....

Mage had two options...sheep my paladin and allow me to gain the ability to sheep or...stop his cast, cast a junk spell, then start casting poly again..by that time his opportunity to sheep would be gone because paladin would have good position.

He choose to sheep the paladin, I sheeped his priest, got back on the mage and forced his iceblock a 5min cooldown, while the priest was sheeped.


The point of that isn't that i got to cast polymorph. The point of that is to show that I was in control. Dark Sim forced the mage into a lose/lose situation.

You can't look at the ability in terms of stealing someone elses abilities. That is just a perk/bonus much like spell steal giving temporary buffs. The power of the ability is that you can use it to force your opponent to do something they don't want to.


I'm dissapointed that you disagree with me but I see what you're saying. For arena where strategy is key, yes dark sim will have a purpose but in bgs where people do random things that make no sense and everything is chaos, DS will lose its power. My opinion but we'll see what happens on live.
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85 Dwarf Priest
3860
AMS Deathgrip a mage

I sincerely hope you DG a mage after it blinks.


And I sincerely hope mages don't blink til they get death gripped.
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100 Orc Death Knight
14980
Wow I had to read the first page twice to make sure this was not some joke thread. DS is amazing and I can't wait to see how great DKs use it in tournament play.


I think you missed the point of the thread Primez - it's not that good DKs can't do great things with the spell - it's that it is too sensitive to skill. Unlike spell reflect, the penalty for stuffing it up is that you score an ice lance and have to wait for a minute before trying again.

Honestly, I can see that argument apply to a lot of DK abilities. HC/Gnaw/Strangulate are all on long cooldowns, and if you blow them at the wrong time then it will probably cost you the match. While this isn't a problem for the 2200+ crowd, it's very frustrating for people that aren't as good.

Compare that to Mages - there is basically never a bad time to use blink / counterspell / dragons breath / deep freeze etc - because they are all on nice short cooldowns.


Bad warriors will spam it. Good warriors will let, say, a frost mage spam ice lance while they have sword and board out and wait to pop it until they start actually casting something so they either waste time canceling the cast or get the ability reflected. It's on a short cooldown, but that's no excuse to waste it on something silly like an ice lance.


PvP != 1v1. "Good" warriors aren't worried about what their abilities are like in a duel with a frost mage.
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85 Orc Warlock
5930
Its kind of an extra interrupt. If I see DS go up on me, the LAST thing I'm going to do is let this Chaos Bolt of mine launch at you. I'll have to stop what I was casting, throw out some junk spell (Health Funnel? Not like I've got unending breath on an easy to reach button...) and then start over.

Just because you didn't get a meaningful spell to throw back at them, doesn't mean it didn't do something meaningful, just by casting it. Time is a REALLY important factor in PvP. Every GCD counts.

If anything, I'd be complaining about how your opponent's skill (and usage of Power Auras) will reduce such a cool concept, to a mere interrupt, not that you need to be psychic about it.
Edited by Bibdy on 12/2/2010 4:28 PM PST
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100 Orc Death Knight
14980


Compare that to Mages - there is basically never a bad time to use blink / counterspell / dragons breath / deep freeze etc - because they are all on nice short cooldowns.


what game are you playing?

if a mage blinks at the wrong time he's probably dead vs competent opponents.


Uh I have been playing a mage since release day, and the only time that has been true is when everyone can get globaled (Wrath) - in which case you can apply the logic to any ability and it ceases to be a valid statement.

Edit: It isn't even true in Wrath a lot of the time - I've had plenty of mages blink before I use DG, and the only time it matters is when you have been spam dispelled long enough to run them out of everything else.

Right now my fire mage has better defenses than my DK and is quite happy to blink at the wrong time occasionally because he has soo many other short cooldowns.

Edited by Gurht on 12/2/2010 4:37 PM PST
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80 Draenei Shaman
2755
More abilities with high skill caps please, this is a GOOD thing.
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