Templar's Noodle

85 Blood Elf Paladin
4375
Isn't....that what Holy damage does?

I mean. Lava Lash bypasses armor, and deals Fire damage...



thatsthejoke.jpg

Point was that when plds have holy dmg it's OP, but if everything just bypassed armor, that'd be fine, or wouldn't raise such a !#!@ storm
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34 Orc Rogue
180
PvP matters. No really, it does. No one cares about your opinions just because you have some 2k rating. PvP forums that way, nerds.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
7785
PvP matters. No really, it does. No one cares about your opinions just because you have some 2k rating. PvP forums that way, nerds.


You're making it too easy! :(
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100 Draenei Paladin
18410
The problem I have with TV is that for its reliability it doesn't put out the damage that a reliable word heals for.

Its value doesn't shine over word at all especially with the ms nerf.


Wow, that was a fairly quick about face from WoG not healing enough weighed against TV. (Not from you directly, just the general banter about ret finishers).


I read that multiple times trying to understand. Reword it :(


A month or three back there were alot of complaints about WoG not healing for enough compared to the opportunity cost of a TV. It's just interesting how the arguments have changed during that time.
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1 Dwarf Paladin
0
A month or three back there were alot of complaints about WoG not healing for enough compared to the opportunity cost of a TV. It's just interesting how the arguments have changed during that time.

They'd still probably be right at 85. WOG scales miserably compared to healthpools/damage.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
7785
The problem I have with TV is that for its reliability it doesn't put out the damage that a reliable word heals for.

Its value doesn't shine over word at all especially with the ms nerf.


Wow, that was a fairly quick about face from WoG not healing enough weighed against TV. (Not from you directly, just the general banter about ret finishers).


I read that multiple times trying to understand. Reword it :(


A month or three back there were alot of complaints about WoG not healing for enough compared to the opportunity cost of a TV. It's just interesting how the arguments have changed during that time.


Well that's because both were weak and ret's survivability has been completely neutered to be resilience, plate(hardly makes a difference anymore), and WoG. Compared to when we had sacred shield+art of war hot synergy along with freedom stuns etc. at the cost of no damage. There's just no place to use TV if you can't force anyone defensive when you use it.

I was once Envenom'd alone for 13k so that now as soon as a rogue opens on me I pop divine protection or I'll die because I can't outheal it.

But the rogue with it's default avoidance and it's many defensive cooldowns along with self peels can afford using combo points on Recuperate if nessecary and can stealth off any cooldowns we use.

As similar as ret is right now to rogues, the difference is the time we spend disabled for the reward we gain from actually reaching 3 holy power is not enough.
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80 Blood Elf Paladin
4805
TV is fine Damage wise at level 85, It scales off of weapon damage only, and thus will be fine with level 85 weapons. I agree with Roghtar that it could use some holy damage scaling and i think that is best done through changing our mastery. Most of our damage issues in PvP are the result of there being too much RNG especially on our hardest hitting abilities. We need Exorcism to do less damage but far more reliable. This with a mastery changed and Ret would be fine against high armor targets.

Righteous Vengeance:

Your physical damaging attacks deal will deal X% of there damage over Y seconds, percentage of damage increased by 2% per point of mastery.

If you allow TV to do a portion of its damage as instant Holy damage than the percentage of Weapon damage would have to come down.


Ret and dots do not mix.


Why is that? i see no reason why Righteous Vengeance couldn't come back as our Mastery. Ret Doesn't need more burst, we just need what we have to be reliable and not reliant on the RNG gods. An instant Attack Holy Damage bonus to attacks is just more burst and burst that could get out of control in PvP if we choose to stack up Mastery. The only other solution that i see being balanced would be to do away with Inquisition and make that our Mastery again. Of course inquisition should be replaced with something if this were the case.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
7785
TV is fine Damage wise at level 85, It scales off of weapon damage only, and thus will be fine with level 85 weapons. I agree with Roghtar that it could use some holy damage scaling and i think that is best done through changing our mastery. Most of our damage issues in PvP are the result of there being too much RNG especially on our hardest hitting abilities. We need Exorcism to do less damage but far more reliable. This with a mastery changed and Ret would be fine against high armor targets.

Righteous Vengeance:

Your physical damaging attacks deal will deal X% of there damage over Y seconds, percentage of damage increased by 2% per point of mastery.

If you allow TV to do a portion of its damage as instant Holy damage than the percentage of Weapon damage would have to come down.


Ret and dots do not mix.


Why is that? i see no reason why Righteous Vengeance couldn't come back as our Mastery. Ret Doesn't need more burst, we just need what we have to be reliable and not reliant on the RNG gods. An instant Attack Holy Damage bonus to attacks is just more burst and burst that could get out of control in PvP if we choose to stack up Mastery. The only other solution that i see being balanced would be to do away with Inquisition and make that our Mastery again. Of course inquisition should be replaced with something if this were the case.


The whole "Holy damage is too much damage" argument isn't really valid. If we do too much holy damage they should just lower the damage. Simple as that. Changing the property only makes it ignore armor which every class does now anyways except us. Armor just helps regulate auto attack damage and some fillers atm except to us, it actually regulates our strongest attack aswell.

From a PVP standpoint, Dots break CC simple as that. They're extremely problematic and it's the reason seal of truth isn't the pvp seal in arena.

The whole "fear of burst" from a ret pally is silly aswell. Every class can burst.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
8240


The whole "Holy damage is too much damage" argument isn't really valid. If we do too much holy damage they should just lower the damage. Simple as that. Changing the property only makes it ignore armor which every class does now anyways except us. Armor just helps regulate auto attack damage and some fillers atm except to us, it actually regulates our strongest attack aswell.

From a PVP standpoint, Dots break CC simple as that. They're extremely problematic and it's the reason seal of truth isn't the pvp seal in arena.

The whole "fear of burst" from a ret pally is silly aswell. Every class can burst.


If PvP holy damage was that huge of a concern, the Devs could easily bake in a special reduction into Resilience as well. Holy damage being OP is such a huge cop out at this point and really stunts the growth possibilities and overall feel of the class as a whole.
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80 Human Paladin
5805
It would be nice to see it deal Holy Damage, that would make Inquisition more fun to push in my opinion.

It's also a thing of immersion; if a Holy Warriors biggest attack isn't Holy, that's a weird feeling.
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81 Night Elf Druid
2985
The title of the thread gave me a limp you know what.
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85 Human Paladin
4660
I assure you it hits much harder at 85 in mediocre gear. Plate w/ shields and some mail wearers still mitigate a lot of it, however.


I hope you are right because as of right now in bgs it takes awhile to build up 3 stacks of holy power so when you have to make a sacrifice between 3 holy power word of glory and 3 holy power of TV then if you Choose TV it better be hitting hard for the long ramp up time. I hope the devs are reading this right now.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
4375
As long as there is no holy resistance, holy damage will be more op than 100% armor pen.


Well holy resistance wouldn't make any sense, and it's not like ret did amazing dmg before WotLK when they primarily did holy dmg. There's a way to get ret to do good dmg in pvp, not be OP in the process, and maybe even make a niche for it.
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85 Troll Death Knight
3840
lol.. isnt ret getting inqusition which buffs holy dmg? Just what does ret have that deals holy damage besides the predicable judgement, and occasional exo?
Edited by Razashi on 12/2/2010 4:18 PM PST
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90 Troll Hunter
16610
Templar's Noodle will at least be in good company with hunter Noodle Shot, and Noodle Shot 2.0 (Kill Shot and Aimed Shot.)
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100 Human Paladin
13775
Actually no. You're still closer to how RUNES(notice: RUNES. Not Runic Power. That must be the whole "unable to read" problem cropping its head up again, I guess) operate and RAGE operate. Your Templar's Verdict, Zealotry, Word of Glory, Inquisition, and other Holy Power abilities do not consume Mana. Thus, they are a completely separate mechanic. Rogue abilities consume both Combo Points and Energy. Thanks for playing though. It was fun!


Runes regen automatically. You start with full runes. Holy power is most definately closer to combo points. Our attacks generate up to 3 holy power, then we can use that holy power on special abilities. Do your runes make it so that having 2 runes makes the same ability hit harder than having 1 rune? Do you have to actively use special attacks to generate those runes? Do you start out with 0 runes and have to then build them up? Holy power, runes, and combo points are all fairly different, but the differences between combo points and holy power is much smaller.

Thanks for playing though.
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