Viable dispel nerfs

80 Night Elf Druid
2190
-PvP-oriented post-

It's no secret that dispels of all types are very overpowered, they never fail, they're instant and they have no CD and they're pretty cheap mana-wise, both at 80 and 85. Has any discussion been going on about how to make dispel more of a decision? I never thought mana was a good way to balance dispels, I think it would just lead to obnoxious mana wars where teammates are pressured to finish a fight/match before they're healers oom.

Personally I think having dispel success rate DR in percentages (maybe 100-80-60-40-20-0) with a reset time of 10 seconds is a feasible method. Only drawback I could think of is for non-magical CC like Hex, decursing DRs would probably be at 100% whenever you want to use it...does anyone else have any ideas?
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13230
Dispels definitely need to be readjusted, but I'm not sure adding more RNG would solve anything. If RNG favors someone they can still rip through everything. How often do you need to cast more then 3 dispels in 10 seconds anyways?

TBH I think a cooldown would be the best solution. Something high like 5-10 seconds.
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90 Night Elf Druid
8280
They need to have a cast time. As long as they're instant, it's just pure crap.
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I think a cast time is the way to go. For PvE reasons, a cooldown probably won't work out.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13230
I think a cast time is the way to go. For PvE reasons, a cooldown probably won't work out.


Why? All healers can dispel magic now and not many encounters need massive amounts of people dispelled.

Cast time introduces all sorts of problems such as... Which tree is locked out? It'd be a quick way to ensure that polys are never dispelled when that melee is training the healer.

5-10 second cooldown in my book.
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85 Human Mage
9415
I think a cast time is the way to go. For PvE reasons, a cooldown probably won't work out.


I'd prefer to see a stacking type cost on dispels. Similar to arcane mages and arcane blast. Single accurate dispels aren't changed, but each one after costs more and more until X amount of time has passed. Truly punish the spamming, but not make single dispels painful.

Not just for healers, but all spammable dispels

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85 Undead Death Knight
6110
What about some kind of DR mechanic? Like after a certain # of dispels within a certain window of time on the same target (be it friendly or enemy) dispels stop working for a certain duration. I don't know--I'm not bothered by the fact they are instant, I'm bothered by the fact they are constantly spammed. A DR mechanic like this would address the issue of them being spammed; so might a CD. Adding a cast time doesn't necessarily counter spamming.

Between cast time and CD, I'd probably prefer CD.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
10155
I think a cast time is the way to go. For PvE reasons, a cooldown probably won't work out.


I'd prefer to see a stacking type cost on dispels. Similar to arcane mages and arcane blast. Single accurate dispels aren't changed, but each one after costs more and more until X amount of time has passed. Truly punish the spamming, but not make single dispels painful.

Not just for healers, but all spammable dispels


First off the issue isn't with the whole dispel system, it's with offensive dispels brought by specs that aren't designed to hard OOM like healers.

The issue I see with this is when you get to classes that stack int. In theory the idea sounds great, and it would always work for classes and specs that have a constant max resource throughout the game (rogues and hunters) or might as well (enhance shamans). It falls apart once you get to classes and specs like priests, elemental, resto and mages. Their mana pools increase with each new piece of gear and eventually, they get to the point where the stacking debuff isn't a deterrent because by the time they might feel that mana squeeze, everything worth removing will be long gone.

Really, the better solution is to put offensive dispels on some sort of CD. Either put it on the ability or make the target immune to additional offensive dispels for X secs when someone removes a buff. As for the idea with duration reduction, that might be too difficult to program in at this point, it wouldn't be a bad approach for making sure that powerful magical CDs can be countered without making them trivial annoyances for classes with offensive dispels.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13230
I'd prefer to see a stacking type cost on dispels. Similar to arcane mages and arcane blast. Single accurate dispels aren't changed, but each one after costs more and more until X amount of time has passed. Truly punish the spamming, but not make single dispels painful.



Not just for healers, but all spammable dispels


How long would the debuff last? Because with the lack of trash buffs present now it only takes 1-2 casts to get any and all magic debuffs off.

Unless the dispels cost somewhere around 10% mana, the dispel will almost always be worth it considering how much damage/healing you can get off in a 10 second window.

This is especially the case for purge/priest dispel getting rid of two magic effects at once. Brings me to my next point. Why are so many different ailments baked into one spell? For instance.... Pally cleanse gets rid of 1 magic, 1 poison, and 1 disease. Is that...... necessary?
Edited by Bieberfever on 12/1/2010 11:07 PM PST
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1 Dwarf Paladin
0
Magical classes were hardly weak at 85, even with the state of dispels.
I imagine if they were nerfed in any significant fashion, you'd also have to do a pass on damage casters.
Not saying this shouldn't happen, but it's food for thought.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13230
Magical classes were hardly weak at 85, even with the state of dispels.

I imagine if they were nerfed in any significant fashion, you'd also have to do a pass on damage casters.

Not saying this shouldn't happen, but it's food for thought.


With dispels as strong as they are, casters needed to be able to do unhealable damage to be viable.

Thus, spellcleave was born.

Alter dispels and then we can look at caster damage.
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1 Dwarf Paladin
0
Magical classes were hardly weak at 85, even with the state of dispels.

I imagine if they were nerfed in any significant fashion, you'd also have to do a pass on damage casters.

Not saying this shouldn't happen, but it's food for thought.


With dispels as strong as they are, casters needed to be able to do unhealable damage to be viable.

Thus, spellcleave was born.

Alter dispels and then we can look at caster damage.

I was more speaking of the game at 85 from my (admittedly not very much arena/rated BG) experience in beta.
They don't for the most part deal unhealable damage, but they're still quite strong, even with the state of dispels.
I don't think it's necessarily something that will be fixed by looking at damage and damage alone.
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85 Human Mage
9415

How long would the debuff last? Because with the lack of trash buffs present now it only takes 1-2 casts to get any and all magic debuffs off.

Unless the dispels cost somewhere around 10% mana, the dispel will almost always be worth it considering how much damage/healing you can get off in a 10 second window.

This is especially the case for purge/priest dispel getting rid of two magic effects at once. Brings me to my next point. Why are so many different ailments baked into one spell? For instance.... Pally cleanse gets rid of 1 magic, 1 poison, and 1 disease. Is that...... necessary?


I'd like to see it last long enough to be a penalty. I've not played my resto shammy at 85, only 80... but I dispel constantly in bgs....nearly nonstop. It's always cheaper than healing through the damage, offensive or defensive. That shouldn't be possible... or possible be but at a more extreme cost. Essentially the same as a cooldown, but with the option to blow a load of mana if you feel the dispel is worth that.
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85 Undead Warlock
12590
Magical classes were hardly weak at 85, even with the state of dispels.
I imagine if they were nerfed in any significant fashion, you'd also have to do a pass on damage casters.
Not saying this shouldn't happen, but it's food for thought.


Trash buffs were obliterated. Dispels were greatly strengthened. Dispels need no further buffs.
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85 Tauren Shaman
11320
Things are fine right now. Trash buffs might be gone, but you can still get multiple buffs up at once. If they were to make any changes to purge then they would also need to allow us to actually control what we dispel. Also there is often things you can do prior to using your CDs in order to help maximize their uptime.

And then there's the fact that base mana is going to make up a lot more of our mana come lvl85, which means dispels will cost more than they currently do.
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85 Dwarf Shaman
9215
It's a system that was in a different rpg I played sometime ago that I was personally a fan of.

Offensive dispels removed all of the targets buffs and defensive dispels removed all of that particular kind of debuff.
In return all dispels had decent cd's on them, some were are short as 4 seconds others were upto 30 seconds dependant on the type of dispel it was.

This would most likely make dispels alot more potent when going against 1-2 players but alot less potent the more people there are in the fray.
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85 Night Elf Rogue
4915
I realize this is primarily an offensive-dispel based discussion, but i think it's important to also look at defensive dispels. Classes like shadow priests were suffering to a massive degree from the spammy nature of defensive dispels as well. Put a Spriest up against any healer with a magic dispel and you might as well shift out of form and help heal, because you're never going to put any worthwhile damage on target. As big as the problem with offensive dispels is, defensive dispels are just as spammable and just as detrimental to dot-based damage classes (although there are admittedly fewer of them).
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