Viable dispel nerfs

85 Blood Elf Paladin
10155
For the guy saying that a CD won't help, in single play that may be correct. In arena and BGs, that's going to have an effect. If you dispel someone, while that CD is ticking, you can't remove buffs from others (ex. you take renew off of rogue, one of his teammates pops Icy Veins, now you can't remove it until your dispel finishes it's CD).

Now someone's going to say, but in group play you're likely to have more than one dispel. Dispels can be applied to targets with nothing worth stripping now. Unless you team has really good communication, then you're liable to have cases where dispels are wasted because two people mindlessly dispel the same target. Even with good communication, the target isn't going to lose their buffs near instantly since a good team isn't going to want to waste dispels. Sure you could assign people but then that runs the risk of the mage popping Icy Veins while the rogue has you in a kidney shot and your other defensive dispeller is saving his dispel for the healer's buffs.
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85 Blood Elf Mage
3515
make dispels works like arcane blast, you dispel one time the cost of the next is increased by 100% for 4 secs
there i fixed it.

I'm not really sure that fixes it. It makes the process of clearing a buff stack either take longer or consume more mana, but once they're gone it'd be incredibly easy to keep off new buffs.

The opportunity cost of dispels needs to go up - before we lost dispel protection and trash buffs, the net effect of 30% dispel protection was wasted GCDs. They'd use a GCD at a key time, and gain nothing from it. That's not ideal - but we should be trying to reproduce that downside, without introducing RNG.

I think the way to do that is to increase the GCD on dispels. Change them from the standard 1.5 seconds to 2.5 seconds.

The mana cost and the opportunity cost are two different things - maybe they also need to introduce a stacking debuff mana cost, or just up the standard mana cost by a bit more. But you can't effectively balance dispels just by increasing the mana cost. At no point will a healer not want to dispel a 10 second CC just because it costs a few hundred extra mana. They might rethink it if they're out in the open, and they'll be put on a 2.5 second GCD, forcing them to eat a CC.

Felhunter Devour needs to have the cooldown doubled or tripled. It is incredibly overpowered in the slow paced 85 PvP. Once it clears a buff stack, it auto-devours any new buffs you can put up. It essentially removes a class's ability to keep any buff on themselves. You have to do silly stuff like put up a Slow Fall or Renew or Life Bloom, eating Devour, and then putting up your 'real' buffs. It essentailly doubles your buff GCDs.
Edited by Affx on 12/2/2010 9:27 AM PST
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85 Undead Priest
6340
maybe the way to alleviate dispel "spam" is to significantly increase the mana cost of a dispel that doesn't clear anything (not talking about hits/misses). They changed dispel to keep dispelling even if there isn't anything to dispel, when this happens make dispel cost much more.

It's one thing to actively be looking for something to dispel, react to it, and clear it...compared to mashing my dispel key and clearing anything in the way.

If i'm in a bg and there are 5 different guys with debuffs to be dispelled, and i clear them all... i shouldn't be penalized for reacting to the situation and playing well. but if we're tunneling down a priest (for example) and mashing dispel, whether it clears anything or not, I should be penalized for the dispels that are wasted.

dunno if that makes sense.

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85 Blood Elf Paladin
10155
The simple solution to the felhound dispel, is to remove it from being an auto cast ability. Force locks with felhounds to have to hit the button and it becomes less of an issue. Probably one of the abilities that you would need to remove from being macroed in with other attacks (I can see the lazy lock then resorting to making a macro for all their abilities that causes the pet to use the dispel if it happens to be off it's CD).

I do think people aren't getting that offensive dispels can't be balanced around mana, giving what they can remove (not to mention that we have two classes that can dispel, that don't use mana (granted rogues are limited to only enrage effects). First off, a dps class is designed to have nearly unlimited resources when using their normal rotation with the occasional mix of utility. So it's also a no brainer to remove wings/arcane power/IV/what have you, since the dispeler deprives the dispelee of a 1+ minute CD for the cost of a GCD and will have the resources to continue the rotation. Any solution has to make the dispeler think about whether it's worth removing that 1+ minute CD or finding other ways to deal with it because the offensive dispel won't always be well spent hitting each and every CD that their opponents pop.
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85 Undead Priest
6340
easy solution is to just give a weakened soul style effect whenever you dispel a target, offensive or defensive, 6 secs long, that way you cant spam dispel the same target defensively or offensively


after thinking about it, i like my post above yours better. If I play well and react quickly to magical buffs/debuffs i shouldn't be penalized. However, mindless spamming is the problem. Since you can cast dispel/purge/spellsteal on targets without magical buffs/debuffs... THAT is when the mana cost should go way up.
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85 Undead Warlock
12590
Felhunter Devour needs to have the cooldown doubled or tripled. It is incredibly overpowered in the slow paced 85 PvP. Once it clears a buff stack, it auto-devours any new buffs you can put up. It essentially removes a class's ability to keep any buff on themselves. You have to do silly stuff like put up a Slow Fall or Renew or Life Bloom, eating Devour, and then putting up your 'real' buffs. It essentailly doubles your buff GCDs.


That's an entertaining paragraph. Bad idea you've got there, though.

A better solution (should it be "overpowered") would be modifying how the spell works so that it mimics player dispels - it would dispel automatically whether a buff was present or not.
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85 Blood Elf Mage
3515
maybe the way to alleviate dispel "spam" is to significantly increase the mana cost of a dispel that doesn't clear anything (not talking about hits/misses). They changed dispel to keep dispelling even if there isn't anything to dispel, when this happens make dispel cost much more.

It's one thing to actively be looking for something to dispel, react to it, and clear it...compared to mashing my dispel key and clearing anything in the way.

If i'm in a bg and there are 5 different guys with debuffs to be dispelled, and i clear them all... i shouldn't be penalized for reacting to the situation and playing well. but if we're tunneling down a priest (for example) and mashing dispel, whether it clears anything or not, I should be penalized for the dispels that are wasted.

dunno if that makes sense.

We're not suggesting you should be penalized for playing well - but the way that will be expressed is by not being overly penalized by wasting dispel on nothing.

The discussion we're having is one that relies on the assumption that assuming you aren't wasting mana dispelling nothing, dispels are way too strong currently. You'd be hard pressed to find find people that disagree.
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85 Blood Elf Mage
3515
Felhunter Devour needs to have the cooldown doubled or tripled. It is incredibly overpowered in the slow paced 85 PvP. Once it clears a buff stack, it auto-devours any new buffs you can put up. It essentially removes a class's ability to keep any buff on themselves. You have to do silly stuff like put up a Slow Fall or Renew or Life Bloom, eating Devour, and then putting up your 'real' buffs. It essentailly doubles your buff GCDs.


That's an entertaining paragraph. Bad idea you've got there, though.

A better solution (should it be "overpowered") would be modifying how the spell works so that it mimics player dispels - it would dispel automatically whether a buff was present or not.

I think that's an interesting idea, and anything we can do to discourage players from using Auto Devour is probably a good one... but I don't think it'd be enough of a nerf. A competent Warlock that uses manual devour could still accomplish what I was talking about using that system. I think it is strictly a problem of too many buffs being removed per minute.

edit: I should note that assuming the goal is to keep Devour's relative strength at 80 and 85 the same, it makes logical sense that the CD would need to be increased. Trash buffs have largely been removed, 30% dispel protection removed, so the effective amount of time it takes for a Felhunter to go through a class's stack of buffs have been cut in half, I'd estimate. Once the stack is gone, it now gets any new buffs you put up 100% of the time instead of 70% of the time (more like 50% against Mages, due to passive resistance)
Edited by Affx on 12/2/2010 9:58 AM PST
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100 Goblin Warlock
17100
Every magic buff or debuff using spec needs a proc when their main spell is dispelled and maybe 2 spells in some cases. Giving a downside to dispelling isn't in mana or a cd. It's in "if I do this, then this will happen".

Edit:

Also you do know the whole reason the felhunter is the way it is now is due to the nerf right? Had they never removed the defensive dispel from it, the auto devour would never be a discussion point for the most part.
Edited by Purebalance on 12/2/2010 10:08 AM PST
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85 Undead Warlock
12590
Felhunter Devour needs to have the cooldown doubled or tripled. It is incredibly overpowered in the slow paced 85 PvP. Once it clears a buff stack, it auto-devours any new buffs you can put up. It essentially removes a class's ability to keep any buff on themselves. You have to do silly stuff like put up a Slow Fall or Renew or Life Bloom, eating Devour, and then putting up your 'real' buffs. It essentailly doubles your buff GCDs.


That's an entertaining paragraph. Bad idea you've got there, though.

A better solution (should it be "overpowered") would be modifying how the spell works so that it mimics player dispels - it would dispel automatically whether a buff was present or not.

I think that's an interesting idea, and anything we can do to discourage players from using Auto Devour is probably a good one... but I don't think it'd be enough of a nerf. A competent Warlock that uses manual devour could still accomplish what I was talking about using that system. I think it is strictly a problem of too many buffs being removed per minute.

edit: I should note that assuming the goal is to keep Devour's relative strength at 80 and 85 the same, it makes logical sense that the CD would need to be increased. Trash buffs have largely been removed, 30% dispel protection removed, so the effective amount of time it takes for a Felhunter to go through a class's stack of buffs have been cut in half, I'd estimate. Once the stack is gone, it now gets any new buffs you put up 100% of the time instead of 70% of the time (more like 50% against Mages, due to passive resistance)


Dispel, spellsteal, and purge seem ferociously stronger in a world free of trash buffs. Devour, likewise, I suppose seems stronger as well.

Of course, it's possible that devour's potency at 85 was an intended buff given the slight change in play style from lack of self-devour. (insert shock, awe here)

It's also possible devour seems more lethal now because a warlock's always gonna have that dog chomping on someone for the added pressure, especially now that self dispel has been taken away from that pet.

I'm certain though if dispels were given an 85 revamp, they wouldn't forget to change devour as well.
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85 Blood Elf Mage
3515
Felhunter Devour needs to have the cooldown doubled or tripled. It is incredibly overpowered in the slow paced 85 PvP. Once it clears a buff stack, it auto-devours any new buffs you can put up. It essentially removes a class's ability to keep any buff on themselves. You have to do silly stuff like put up a Slow Fall or Renew or Life Bloom, eating Devour, and then putting up your 'real' buffs. It essentailly doubles your buff GCDs.


That's an entertaining paragraph. Bad idea you've got there, though.

A better solution (should it be "overpowered") would be modifying how the spell works so that it mimics player dispels - it would dispel automatically whether a buff was present or not.

I think that's an interesting idea, and anything we can do to discourage players from using Auto Devour is probably a good one... but I don't think it'd be enough of a nerf. A competent Warlock that uses manual devour could still accomplish what I was talking about using that system. I think it is strictly a problem of too many buffs being removed per minute.

edit: I should note that assuming the goal is to keep Devour's relative strength at 80 and 85 the same, it makes logical sense that the CD would need to be increased. Trash buffs have largely been removed, 30% dispel protection removed, so the effective amount of time it takes for a Felhunter to go through a class's stack of buffs have been cut in half, I'd estimate. Once the stack is gone, it now gets any new buffs you put up 100% of the time instead of 70% of the time (more like 50% against Mages, due to passive resistance)


Dispel, spellsteal, and purge seem ferociously stronger in a world free of trash buffs. Devour, likewise, I suppose seems stronger as well.

Yep, that's why this thread was created, to discuss how they should be nerfed. Obviously a longer GCD or higher mana cost doesn't really make sense as a way to rebalance Devour, so a different solution has to be implemented for it.

The stated design goal was for dispels to be weaker, not stronger. They failed pretty hard on that, so far.

Of course, it's possible that devour's potency at 85 was an intended buff given the slight change in play style from lack of self-devour. (insert shock, awe here)

No matter what the intent was (I don't think that was the intent, BTW), the result is that it was overpowered on Beta, unquestionably - I can't really describe it, but when people get a chance to see it themselves they'll see why, it causes situations where classes that rely on buffs just plain can't get any buffs up.

I'm certain though if dispels were given an 85 revamp, they wouldn't forget to change devour as well.

Even though all dispels got way, way stronger in 4.0, Devour got the biggest buff, IMO. I don't think Devour needing a nerf hinges on them nerfing other dispels, really.

We're getting off topic as this thread is about dispels in general, not devour, so this'll be my last post on the matter I think!
Edited by Affx on 12/2/2010 10:32 AM PST
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85 Undead Warlock
12590
We're getting off topic as this thread is about dispels in general, not devour, so this'll be my last post on the matter I think!


Fine with me. We're probably of the same overall opinion on dispels anyway.
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1 Dwarf Paladin
0
Magical classes were hardly weak at 85, even with the state of dispels.
I imagine if they were nerfed in any significant fashion, you'd also have to do a pass on damage casters.
Not saying this shouldn't happen, but it's food for thought.


Trash buffs were obliterated. Dispels were greatly strengthened. Dispels need no further buffs.

How in god's name do you get "BUFF DISPELS" out of my post?!
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85 Undead Warlock
12590
Magical classes were hardly weak at 85, even with the state of dispels.
I imagine if they were nerfed in any significant fashion, you'd also have to do a pass on damage casters.
Not saying this shouldn't happen, but it's food for thought.


Trash buffs were obliterated. Dispels were greatly strengthened. Dispels need no further buffs.

How in god's name do you get "BUFF DISPELS" out of my post?!


It was more a flippant comment regarding the idea that reining in dispels would require a nerf to casters. If you nerf dispels and then nerf casters "accordingly," well, nothing was nerfed because everything was nerfed. Right? Dispels remain powerful.
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1 Dwarf Paladin
0
Magical classes were hardly weak at 85, even with the state of dispels.
I imagine if they were nerfed in any significant fashion, you'd also have to do a pass on damage casters.
Not saying this shouldn't happen, but it's food for thought.


Trash buffs were obliterated. Dispels were greatly strengthened. Dispels need no further buffs.

How in god's name do you get "BUFF DISPELS" out of my post?!


It was more a flippant comment regarding the idea that reining in dispels would require a nerf to casters. If you nerf dispels and then nerf casters "accordingly," well, nothing was nerfed because everything was nerfed. Right? Dispels remain powerful.

Unless you're making the assumption casters are weak at 85 due to dispels (I would say you'd have MASSIVE difficulty arguing this with most players who were in beta), then you are going to need to nerf casters if you nerf dispels, simply because they are absolutely stronger in an environment where magic dispelling is more difficult.
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85 Human Paladin
7590
As others have mentioned, the abilitiy to completely strip a person of all buffs is the problem.

I personally think dispells should be reworked as follows:

Suppression: (Renamed from Dispel Magic)
The affected Buff / Debuff becomes engulfed in magical bonds suppressing the benefits or harmful affects for [10/8/4/0] seconds. Stacks up-to 4 times but with reduced duration.

Visual: The affected buff/debuff will be shown with the same "can not interrupt this spell" border.

Rationale: Dispelling permanent "buffs" is pretty meaningless as they'll get them back shortly. Spamming simply cuts the duration that the buff/debuff is suppressed. Moreover, if you spam dispell 4 times on a single target, suppression drops. However, it still means dispelling powerful abilities with short durations remains viable.

By no means an easy change and the stack size / duration are all subject to balancing.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
15015
While I am all for offensive dispels getting nerfed, actually doing so provides some problems as many have mentioned.

If you put a CD on dispels, it just makes comps more tunnel visioned in needing more offensive dispellers to compensate. This also makes classes that instantly apply debuffs or ones that can easily apply them to groups incredibly powerful.

My favorite suggestion thus far has been to limit the number of effects dispelled by offensives to just 1. I think this is a very needed change, however I don't think this will solve the problems of dispels being so spammable.

I'd like to think of it this way - the problem with offensive dispelling lies in in PvP only. Therefore, why not make resilience provide some amount of dispel protection? It seems like the most obvious solution that would have no effect on PvE whatsoever.
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