Viable dispel nerfs

80 Tauren Druid
2295
Things are fine right now. Trash buffs might be gone, but you can still get multiple buffs up at once. If they were to make any changes to purge then they would also need to allow us to actually control what we dispel. Also there is often things you can do prior to using your CDs in order to help maximize their uptime.

And then there's the fact that base mana is going to make up a lot more of our mana come lvl85, which means dispels will cost more than they currently do.


A lot of classes can't generate multiple buffs at once. Besides it should take longer to remove a buff or debuff than it is to cast them, or be more expensive.

Personally, I think a 1.5 sec cast time should be mandatory for dispels. It won't affect pve but will open up casters to interrupts in pvp and mean they have to be stationary to cast.

Purges need a 2 second cast and a 6 second cd. Being able to spam strip buffs is just wrong when so many of them are long cooldowns and their is no penalty for doing so.
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85 Blood Elf Mage
3515
Before they start making healing even more difficult than they already have, they need to a take a hard look at CC's and other debuffs to make sure they are in line with the cost of dispelling them.

In other words, if you want to make dispels even riskier to use then you need to make CC just as risky.

This is another one of those "careful what you wish for" things because as a DPS you might get yourself further nerfed in the process.

They already massively nerfed CC. The new rating conversion tables make gearing for Haste impractical and ineffective. They removed the 4piece bonus that reduced CC cast time. They increased the base cast time by 0.2 seconds. They removed trash debuffs.

Whatever CC nerf you think should happen, already did happen. The written justification was that dispels would be nerfed to compensate. Instead, they got massively buffed, without explanation.
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85 Undead Death Knight
4000
I think a cast time is the way to go. For PvE reasons, a cooldown probably won't work out.



Cast time introduces all sorts of problems such as... Which tree is locked out? It'd be a quick way to ensure that polys are never dispelled when that melee is training the healer.
.


That's part of the point. You have to make a decision. A real decision. You are not making a decision right now. You see something that is terrible that needs to be dispelled, you dispell it automatically. If dispelling had consequences then i'd be totally fine. You think the person who put the debuff on you was doing it without thought?

Takes me runes and runic power to put my debuffs on you. And those runes are a bigger chunk of resource than your mana cost for your dispell. My runes are being used to apply debuffs and so they arent being used to wreck your face.
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3 Undead Rogue
0
Before they start making healing even more difficult than they already have, they need to a take a hard look at CC's and other debuffs to make sure they are in line with the cost of dispelling them.

In other words, if you want to make dispels even riskier to use then you need to make CC just as risky.

This is another one of those "careful what you wish for" things because as a DPS you might get yourself further nerfed in the process.

They already massively nerfed CC. The new rating conversion tables make gearing for Haste impractical and ineffective. They removed the 4piece bonus that reduced CC cast time. They increased the base cast time by 0.2 seconds. They removed trash debuffs.

Whatever CC nerf you think should happen, already did happen. The written justification was that dispels would be nerfed to compensate. Instead, they got massively buffed, without explanation.



Except you forgot where they made healing mechanics in general more difficult. Heals cost a lot more and are a lot slower for efficient healing. Thus, it's already difficult enough to heal in PvP and I don't think nerfing dispels to make healing even more difficult is the answer. This is especially true for Priests who seem to have the worst mana regen of any healer right now.

Yes they nerfed your CC by .2 seconds but they didn't make it more difficult for you to DPS. How would you feel if they made it more difficult for you to dps AND nerfed your CC?
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3 Undead Rogue
0
DELETE pls. Why is there no option to delete a post!?!?
Edited by Roguey on 12/2/2010 3:05 PM PST
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85 Blood Elf Mage
3515
Before they start making healing even more difficult than they already have, they need to a take a hard look at CC's and other debuffs to make sure they are in line with the cost of dispelling them.

In other words, if you want to make dispels even riskier to use then you need to make CC just as risky.

This is another one of those "careful what you wish for" things because as a DPS you might get yourself further nerfed in the process.

They already massively nerfed CC. The new rating conversion tables make gearing for Haste impractical and ineffective. They removed the 4piece bonus that reduced CC cast time. They increased the base cast time by 0.2 seconds. They removed trash debuffs.

Whatever CC nerf you think should happen, already did happen. The written justification was that dispels would be nerfed to compensate. Instead, they got massively buffed, without explanation.



Except you forgot where they made healing mechanics in general more difficult. Heals cost a lot more and are a lot slower for efficient healing. Thus, it's already difficult enough to heal in PvP and I don't think nerfing dispels to make healing even more difficult is the answer. This is especially true for Priests who seem to have the worst mana regen of any healer right now.

Yes they nerfed your CC by .2 seconds but they didn't make it more difficult for you to DPS. How would you feel if they made it more difficult for you to dps AND nerfed your CC?

Healing and damage scaled similarly, it was health that outscaled both. Hence the whole 'wanting to see less 100% or 0% arena games' design goal.
Edited by Affx on 12/2/2010 3:07 PM PST
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85 Blood Elf Mage
9270
Thus, it's already difficult enough to heal in PvP and I don't think nerfing dispels to make healing even more difficult is the answer.


make critically important effects physical then (and hence undispellable)
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3 Undead Rogue
0
Before they start making healing even more difficult than they already have, they need to a take a hard look at CC's and other debuffs to make sure they are in line with the cost of dispelling them.

In other words, if you want to make dispels even riskier to use then you need to make CC just as risky.

This is another one of those "careful what you wish for" things because as a DPS you might get yourself further nerfed in the process.

They already massively nerfed CC. The new rating conversion tables make gearing for Haste impractical and ineffective. They removed the 4piece bonus that reduced CC cast time. They increased the base cast time by 0.2 seconds. They removed trash debuffs.

Whatever CC nerf you think should happen, already did happen. The written justification was that dispels would be nerfed to compensate. Instead, they got massively buffed, without explanation.



Except you forgot where they made healing mechanics in general more difficult. Heals cost a lot more and are a lot slower for efficient healing. Thus, it's already difficult enough to heal in PvP and I don't think nerfing dispels to make healing even more difficult is the answer. This is especially true for Priests who seem to have the worst mana regen of any healer right now.

Yes they nerfed your CC by .2 seconds but they didn't make it more difficult for you to DPS. How would you feel if they made it more difficult for you to dps AND nerfed your CC?

Healing and damage scaled similarly, it was health that outscaled both. This post is nonsense.



Well it may be nonsense to you but apparently Blizz agrees with me. Otherwise we would have seen nerfs to dispels in one of the myriad of patches that came out.

In any event, Blizz doesn't seem to want to make it more difficult for healers seeing as how healing got a whole lot harder already. And even if they decided to nerf dispels then you will probably concurrently or soon after see further nerfs to CC to make them just as costly as dispels.


P.S. - Damage and healing scaled similarly? Sorry but that just isn't true. An arcane mage can throw out a 32K arcane blast.....I can't throw out a 32K heal on any of my healers...and I have every type.
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85 Blood Elf Mage
3515
In any event, Blizz doesn't seem to want to make it more difficult for healers seeing as how healing got a whole lot harder already. And even if they decided to nerf dispels then you will probably concurrently or soon after see further nerfs to CC to make them just as costly as dispels.

Again, I dispute that healing 'got a whole lot harder' since damage and healing scaled similarly, but health outscaled both, meaning people don't get globaled anymore which is nothing but a buff to healers. Your argument hinges on an assertion that just plain isn't true.

P.S. - Damage and healing scaled similarly? Sorry but that just isn't true. An arcane mage can throw out a 32K arcane blast.....I can't throw out a 32K heal on any of my healers...and I have every type.

You have never, at any point in WOTLK, been able to throw out heals as high as a 4stack AB with AP up, so I don't see how this is relevant.

edit: hilariously, you seem to be talking about 80 PvP instead of 85 PvP in this last quote...
Edited by Affx on 12/2/2010 3:20 PM PST
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3 Undead Rogue
0

Again, I dispute that healing 'got a whole lot harder' since damage and healing scaled similarly, but health outscaled both, meaning people don't get globaled anymore which is nothing but a buff to healers. Your argument hinges on an assertion that just plain isn't true.



Well I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. However, I do note that Blizz hasn't touched dispels in a long time (since the first couple patches of Beta I believe) so I tend to think they don't want to nerf them. At least not until they see how the next arena season goes. Only time will tell though.

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80 Orc Warlock
5075
Well I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. However, I do note that Blizz hasn't touched dispels in a long time (since the first couple patches of Beta I believe) so I tend to think they don't want to nerf them. At least not until they see how the next arena season goes. Only time will tell though.


They havent touched them because they havent come up with a realistic solution to dispels.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
PK
8660
Cant go ret right now. A single shaman can instantly dispell avenger wrath, zealotry, and my mastery in one global cooldown. Sounds like balance and much fun in arena. But then again ret mastery is the worse stat so w/e they can keep dispelling it!
Edited by Ouchmyface on 12/2/2010 3:34 PM PST
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80 Human Priest
4120
NM
Edited by Rosepower on 12/7/2010 11:27 AM PST
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
10155
I don't know why people insist on dragging this discussion back to defensive dispels based on level 80 experience. For those that have followed beta or were in beta, defensive dispels from healers are largely sorted out by 85. It's not just that people's health pools got bigger, it's that going OOM is a very real reality for healers. They don't have the regen mechanics to make it worth removing every little debuff off of their teammates since there may be times where it's more mana efficient to heal through the debuff's damage, let their teammate(s) use their own resources to heal through minor debuff damage or spend their efforts on more pressing concerns.

The issues come up with offensive dispels from classes that are build around not having to worry about hard OOMing. In fact, even if they OOM or run out resources, it far easier to recover from such bad game play than it is for a healer. It's also incredibly cheap opportunity wise to remove many of the dispellable buffs than it is to remove debuffs (who cares if you spend 20% base mana on depriving the other guy his 1-3m CD, it's another story when he can match you GCD for GCD on debuffs that cost just as much).

I'm also puzzled as to why they continue to live dispels that can remove more than on thing per cast (not to be confused with something that can remove only one thing per cast). That seems to scream that said ability hasn't been brought up to date where rng resistance and trash debuffs are gone. You're going to get something valuable most of the time and it seems counter-intuitive to force players to keep situational utility buffs active to hamper mindless dispel spam (it isn't any better than when people found trash buffs/debuffs to protect more important things).

I mean it's one thing for the DK's 2m CD Dark Simulacrum to force someone to pop up levitate, slow fall, sooth, hand of salvation, water walking or what have you. The guy popping the buff isn't doing it to get dispel fodder, he's blowing a GCD to make sure he doesn't give the DK a handy piece of utility that could be game breaking, nor is the guy maintaining it throughout a match. This in turn could prove to be game breaking for the DK who now has a useless buff because the GCD bought his team time to prevent something critical and detrimental to them from happening. Popping dispel fodder to hamper mindless dispel spam doesn't have this paradigm, the dispeller isn't making a choice and it's a really bad set up for the guy popping up levitate as dispel fodder; eventually, the dispeller is going to strip everything of value and the other guy won't even be able to get enough buffs up to even max out the queue on the dispel in a single GCD.
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Its no secret aye? To whom?


To the vast majority of people posting in this thread.
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85 Goblin Warlock
4680
I stopped at page 2. Lots of good ideas but sadly this thread is filled with players only thinking about hteir own little issue with it.

Defensive dispels in my opinion are fine as is. They should be potent. They should be quick, and they should be rather spamable.

Of course they should... since they dont really affect you that much, right? Roll a class that depends on DoTs to deal any kid of damage and tell me defensive dispels are fine as is and should be spamable...

edit:
You want to nerf dispels, then first log onto your Pally main and stop hiding behind your alt.

You need to check your personnal grudges at the door if you want your opinion to matter. As it is, you are a waste of forum space because your bias is so strong its almost disgusting. Hint: not only paladins suffer from dispels. Of course if you are not one of those classes you wont really care, and of course if you are the one abusing said dispels, you will think its all fine and dandy.

Dispels at 85 are have gotten out of hand. It costs less mana and takes less time to just spam dispel against any dot-relying class then to heal through, even given multiple targets, and even given UA (you now take less damage from dispelling it then from letting it tick....).
Edited by Stonedsoul on 12/3/2010 11:15 AM PST
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85 Worgen Warlock
TAO
11495
Dispels need changing for sure. It was a stated goal that dispel spam wasn't viable strat going into cata yet they are stronger than ever. Instead of a decision its the ONLY decision. Now that nobody dies in a short cc (deep freeze victims nonwistanding) its even easier to dispel vs heal.

Each class and spec would need a look but I think some basic rules like:
*instant and cooldown or spammable and casted
*separation of offensive/defensive by the above rule
*mana cost increase - significantly
*offensive dispels are one thing, spellsteal needs to just be a offensive dispel
*DR, yeah I said it....put the dispelled target on a pvp style DR.

Thus if you defensive dispel an effect off a target it starts a DR type chain that by the 3rd one now renders the target immune to the dispeller's efforts. RNG chance to fail is not a good direction but making it stack more mana per dispel up to the immunity would be a fix. Pick when its a good idea to dispel vs just mashing it adnauseam.
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85 Worgen Death Knight
5125
I think a cast time is the way to go. For PvE reasons, a cooldown probably won't work out.


I'd prefer to see a stacking type cost on dispels. Similar to arcane mages and arcane blast. Single accurate dispels aren't changed, but each one after costs more and more until X amount of time has passed. Truly punish the spamming, but not make single dispels painful.

Not just for healers, but all spammable dispels


Best idea so far.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13230
- A debuff that doubles the mana cost each dispel. Lasts 10 seconds.

You spam it, you're doubling the cost each time. 1x->2x->4x->8x->16x mana cost.


Unless the debuff lasts anywhere from 15-20 seconds it just won't work. How many times do you have to hit dispel in an actual arena match within a 10 second time frame?

are you trying to say that happens all the time, or it almost never happens?


I'm trying to say with the all the trash debuffs gone, most smart player would just abuse dispelling something like 1-2 polymorphs every 10 seconds and not have to deal much with the increased mana cost.

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