So...Ret.

80 Blood Elf Paladin
5175
The topic basically sums it up. Wheres all this difficult rotation we were supposed to get? You know, the one that was supposed to make us non-face roll?

CS, Judge, CS, TV.....this doesn't seem like an exciting rotation, especially when half the time I'm wandering around aimlessly waiting for those two abilities to come off cooldown, because TV hits like a wet noodle unless its got three combo points to back it up.

Will haste fix this? Is there some ability Im not using? Beyond random procs for Exo and using (insert name of move that gives CS three combo points every time you use it here) to spam TV for dmg is there anything to make this rotation not boring as hell?

Cmon, the FCFS ret pallies of lore might have been easy to play but atleast I was doing stuff for most of the time, now I sit and watch white hits come up while waiting on cooldowns.

My DK doesn't have to deal with this, neither does my warlock. Hell, my hunter has a more interesting rotation and he's level 51.
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90 Tauren Paladin
12470
Haste does certainly help the rotaion, with a (close to) 3 second CS you can have the CS - filler - CS - filler - CS - TV - repeat fun, not counting mastery procs.

The bigger issue is that at level 85, the amount of haste needed to reach that 3 second cd on CS becomes freakishly insane, and the rotation gets super clunky again. Inquisition only adds to the clunkiness, and none of it is very difficult or fun.

But hey, Holy is a lot more fun now, so there's that.
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90 Human Paladin
12585
I don't know how much more complicated you were expecting it to get, but its definitely a lot more dynamic than the previous rotation we had going.

You know the one where you could hit moves in basically any order you wanted and wouldn't lose that much dps.

The revamp was also done for PvP reasons to remove the front loaded part of our burst.

I find myself not really understanding the point of this thread as I go further.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
7735
Retribution isn't difficult to play if you aren't worried about doing the best you can do. If you are, then retribution is pretty easily the most difficult class in the game to get a perfect rotation with. For EVERY button pressed a ret pally must go through the following split second decision making:

Is Hand of Light procced?
-- If yes, use Templar's Verdict.
Did I proc holy power from my last attack?
-- If yes, do I have 3 holy power?
---- If yes, is Avenging Wrath/Zealotry nearly off cd?
-------If yes, wait and cast those.
-------If no, use Templar's Verdict.
-- If no, is Crusader Strike off cooldown?
---- If yes, use crusader's strike.
---- If no, is it better to wait for it or do I have time to cast something else?
------ If there is time, is Art of War procced?
-------- If yes, cast Exorcism.
-------- If no, is Holy Wrath off cd?
---------- If yes, cast Holy Wrath.
---------- If no, is Judgement off cd?
------------If yes, cast Judgement.
------------If no, is consecrate off cd?
--------------If yes, cast consecrate.
--------If there isn't time, wait the split second and cast Crusader's Strike.

With literally every single button press, we must go through this process in a split second. Literally, because taking more than half a second to decide will throw off our next Crusader's Strike for sure. A paladin absolutely cannot plan so much as their next button press, let alone anything beyond that. Also, keep in mind that this is based on having enough haste to actually have a rotation (3 second CS CD). Inquisition will also need to be added in for 85, which will add an entire separate branch to these decisions.

Its like our rotation went from Bop a Mole to Heroic 40 Man Tier 16 raid boss Bop a Mole. Workable? Yes. Achievable? Yes. But probably next to impossible to perform a perfect rotation, and certainly not reliably. Reducing the RNG portion of our rotation would make it a lot more managable. For example, a mutilate rogue can make split second decisions (and feel like a lot of fun) while not being dependent on the RNG determining your next button press.
Edited by Reyvar on 12/2/2010 1:18 AM PST
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90 Human Paladin
12585
Retribution isn't difficult to play if you aren't worried about doing the best you can do. If you are, then retribution is pretty easily the most difficult class in the game to get a perfect rotation with. For EVERY button pressed a ret pally must go through the following split second decision making:

Is Hand of Light procced?
-- If yes, use Templar's Verdict.
Did I proc holy power from my last attack?
-- If yes, do I have 3 holy power?
---- If yes, is Avenging Wrath/Zealotry nearly off cd?
-------If yes, wait and cast those.
-------If no, use Templar's Verdict.
-- If no, is Crusader Strike off cooldown?
---- If yes, use crusader's strike.
---- If no, is it better to wait for it or do I have time to cast something else?
------ If there is time, is Art of War procced?
-------- If yes, cast Exorcism.
-------- If no, is Holy Wrath off cd?
---------- If yes, cast Holy Wrath.
---------- If no, is Judgement off cd?
------------If yes, cast Judgement.
------------If no, is consecrate off cd?
--------------If yes, cast consecrate.
--------If there isn't time, wait the split second and cast Crusader's Strike.

With literally every single button press, we must go through this process in a split second. Literally, because taking more than half a second to decide will throw off our next Crusader's Strike for sure. A paladin absolutely cannot plan so much as their next button press, let alone anything beyond that. Also, keep in mind that this is based on having enough haste to actually have a rotation (3 second CS CD). Inquisition will also need to be added in for 85, which will add an entire separate branch to these decisions.

Its like our rotation went from Bop a Mole to Heroic 40 Man Tier 16 raid boss Bop a Mole. Workable? Yes. Achievable? Yes. But probably next to impossible to perform a perfect rotation, and certainly not reliably. Reducing the RNG portion of our rotation would make it a lot more managable. For example, a mutilate rogue can make split second decisions (and feel like a lot of fun) while not being dependent on the RNG determining your next button press.


As someone you used to heal and cleansebot 40 man raids, I find your 40 man wack a mole analogy to be offensive.
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86 Draenei Warrior
5455
IMHO, the RNG aspect is the issue with what you're talking about. Overcoming the 'learning curve' of a new prioritization scheme is simply a matter of repetition. The new system in that sense is neither harder nor easier than the way things were prior to 4.0.1.

That said, prioritization has come down to watching my ability buttons for the ones that light up, and if laid out in a prioritization-order, hitting the top-most lit-up ones first. If nothing is lit up, then CS/TV as HP dictates.

Again, in that sense, I think Blizz was either feeding us a line (or perhaps honestly self-deluded) that Ret NEEDED something. Resources (ie mana) was never an issue and is even less so now. HP likewise is never an issue once one understands the process to maximize 3-HP uptime and abilities that proc due to RNG.

As far as damage goes, I see a lot of Retadins complaining that they do less PvE dmg now compared to before. I don't know what they're doing, but mine (on fights that last more than a few seconds) has gone up significantly on both my Ret Paladins...one of which is geared fairly well, one not so much. The big caveat ti this is that dmg could have been likewise adjusted in the previous mechanic just the same.

All in all, I'm 'meh' on the new Ret. It is what it is, and Blizz is unlikely to overhaul it anytime soon IMO.
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90 Draenei Paladin
11390
Can someone explain to me where they get the 3 second cooldown as optimum for CS?

This character has it at 3.6sec and is going okay. I could possibly reforge to get it a bit lower but I would lose out on hit rating and expertise.
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85 Draenei Paladin
6630
Can someone explain to me where they get the 3 second cooldown as optimum for CS?


With a 3s cd on CS your rotation becomes CS > X > CS > Y >CS > TV with no down time in between abilities.
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1 Human Rogue
0
Please show me a class/spec that has a 'difficult' or 'challenging' rotation. If you mention any then clearly you have no business evaluating ret dps because NO classes have a hard or challenging rotation, get your head of of the 2008 forums, learn what you are doing and make sure you dont embarrass us pallys like rets did throughout the entire WotLK
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85 Human Paladin
5375
Ret WAS fine prior to 4.0.3. now all our abilities are hitting like wet noodles... (except exo, woooo ....) and now it turns out that the system that was working (3 sec cd CS) is going to go entirely out of whack at 85.... well.... grrr.... im glad that holy is better, but prot and ret are both worse... so what the hell? ret has always been my favorite class but now its hard to play when i can barely pull more than a tank. hell i can pull more dps prot specced in ret gear.. thats pathetic.
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1 Human Rogue
0
Ret WAS fine prior to 4.0.3. now all our abilities are hitting like wet noodles... (except exo, woooo ....) and now it turns out that the system that was working (3 sec cd CS) is going to go entirely out of whack at 85.... well.... grrr.... im glad that holy is better, but prot and ret are both worse... so what the hell? ret has always been my favorite class but now its hard to play when i can barely pull more than a tank. hell i can pull more dps prot specced in ret gear.. thats pathetic.


Clearly you have not been watching us get nerfed to the ground in both PvP and PvE in the past week or two
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86 Goblin Rogue
7755
As someone you used to heal and cleansebot 40 man raids, I find your 40 man wack a mole analogy to be offensive.


I approve of this message.
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85 Human Paladin
5375
I feel like you didnt even read that before posting... 2 weeks ago iwas doing fine. actually pulling comparable dps... and now, ->after patch 4.0.3<- i pull nothing.. just pathetic numbers... hell, less than a BM hunter Lawl! seriously though l2read noob.
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85 Draenei Paladin
6630
hell i can pull more dps prot specced in ret gear.. thats pathetic.


Then you are doing it wrong.
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85 Human Paladin
5375
Have you tried it? i just had a ret geared prot pally pull nearly 7k through H nexus.... it was pathetic. especially since prot has a huge advantage with aoe and can pull similar single target numbers since the nerf.
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85 Draenei Paladin
6630
Have you tried it? i just had a ret geared prot pally pull nearly 7k through H nexus.... it was pathetic. especially since prot has a huge advantage with aoe and can pull similar single target numbers since the nerf.


In an AoE-fest heroic, prot will do more damage since ret basically has no aoe. On a single target boss fight ret does more damage.

So basically when it doesnt matter (trash) prot will have higher numbers, when it does matter(bosses) ret has higher dps. I'm not saying ret is good dps, but it is higher than prot.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
7735
I also pull more dps prot specced than ret specced.

Crusader's Strike hits for only about 400 damage less on a crit (4700 - 5100) and has a 3 second cooldown. Base cooldown, no haste needed (keep in mind, I'm still reforged for max haste, so its not even ideal).

Avenger's Shield and Shield of the Righteous both hit as hard or harder than templar's verdict. Avenger's Shield can proc, not unlike Hand of Light.

You gain holy power faster from the faster cooldown Crusader Strike (though, not counting the 60% chance of gaining it from other abilities.. so it likely evens out, but also removes the RNG here).

Hammer of the Righteous has a 100% chance of gaining holy power, while divine storm has a 60% chance. Again, no more RNG.

After all this, you can hit Righteous Fury and tank if you want too (if a tank dies or something). You're crit capped. Avoidence/Mitigation sucks in dps gear, but you're still better off than you were ret.

IMHO, the RNG aspect is the issue with what you're talking about.


And yes, thats exactly what I'm talking about. Before every button pressed we need to check for two different procs (hand of light and art of war) as well as an extra holy power proc. With only three holy power max this is kind of overkill on the RNG. If we had 5 holy power, like a rogue has combo points, then at least one of those procs wouldn't be an issue quite as much (the extra holy power could be ignored for a crusader's strike or two if you're at 1-2 HP). Don't get me wrong, three holy power is fine and we don't need to be like a rogue. We just need less RNG with such a small max resource pool.
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