Pure DPS = Hybrid DPS + 5%?

85 Orc Warrior
11165
The worst post Blizzard ever could've made and stickied was the one about hybrid tax. So much qq could've been averted simply by deleting it.
Reply Quote
85 Undead Priest
6340
What is a hybrid tax? Why is there a hybrid tax?

I'm going to sticky this since it gets brought up more than almost any other topic.

We only recognize two types of classes for PvE purposes:

Can respec to fulfill a different role = hybrid.
Cannot respec to fulfill a different role = pure.

The roles are tank, healing and damage.

In our design, having two healing trees (priest) or half a tanking tree (druid) or three dps trees (DK) does not put these classes in different categories of hybridness. A hybrid is a hybrid.

It's the roles that your class lets you do that is important, not how those roles are organized into talent trees. The paladin is one way to organize the trees (a tanking tree, healing tree and melee dps tree) but not the only way. However, there is a reason we don't do this for every class -- it would be boring.

In our design, the pure dps classes (hunter, mage, warlock and rogue) should do slightly higher dps than hybrid damage-dealers all things being equal. All things are rarely equal. Player skill, gear, raid comp, latency, random luck and most importantly the specifics of the encounter will often favor one class, spec or player over another.

The reason we want pures to so slightly higher damage is that pures can only fulfill one role. If your guild or raid has no more need for damage-dealers, there is no way for these classes to raid with you. By contrast, the six other classes always have the option to respec for another role either temporarily or for the long haul.

The Blizzard definition of hybrid in this context has nothing to do with whether you can perform multiple roles within a single fight or even within a single raid. It has more to do with the potential for your class to ever fulfill more than one role.

Likewise, the Blizzard definition of hybrid in this context has nothing to do with the power of certain buffs or class synergy. We want all classes to bring useful tools to the raid.

Just because you’re not interested in doing anything other than damage does not qualify your class as a pure as long as the option to change roles is there. For the pure classes the only option is to reroll. We think the pure classes would start to disappear over time, at least from high-end raiding, if there was no advantage for being a pure. The hybrid advantage is flexibility.

There is not a “5% rule” that says pures should be 5% higher than hybrids in every circumstance. Again, most of the time other factors such as the encounter specifics will have a greater effect. The “5% rule” was either something a player suggested that stuck or something we threw out at some point as an example. It isn’t a hard and fast rule. We aren’t going to provide a hard and fast rule because players would then attempt to invoke that rule every time they thought their damage was too low instead of exploring other ways to improve their character’s performance.

This philosophy largely evolved in Wrath of the Lich King and is the design we plan on carrying forward to Cataclysm. In vanilla WoW, every class typically had one role. In BC, we tried to promote other roles for some classes, but we still didn’t make everyone play by the same rules. Warriors, and I hate to pick on them, were intended to be the best tank while also deliver dps that we would now label as competitive with rogues. By contrast, druids, paladins, priests and shaman were intended to be competitive healers, but have dramatically lower dps than pures and warriors. Likewise, druids, paladins, priests and shaman brought many unique and powerful buffs that were intended to compensate for their low dps. We spread these buffs out to a much greater degree in Lich King, and plan on refining that implementation for Cataclysm.

TLDR:

Hybrid = can respec to fulfill a different role (damage, tanking, or healing).
Hybrid != can fill multiple roles at the same time.
Hybrid != has awesome, amazing buffs or utility.
Hybrid != pure. Beyond that, there are no shades of gray among hybrids.


In general, we ask that players focus their feedback more on class mechanics and what is fun or not fun about the classes and not simply on “My dps is too low so you must buff me.”
Ghostcrawler
Lead Systems Designer
Reply Quote
85 Orc Death Knight
6450
GC stated himself that the hybrid tax isn't going away in cataclysm.

PS - The developers have never stated a hard number (5%), that was made up by players.


It was stated by GC on the WotLK beta forums. It was not made up by players. Since then he has said he was just throwing out a number.
Reply Quote
85 Orc Death Knight
6450
The worst post Blizzard ever could've made and stickied was the one about hybrid tax. So much qq could've been averted simply by deleting it.


How? It was put up in response to the forums being overrun by the topic for most of a year. The worst of it was before the sticky post.
Reply Quote
85 Orc Death Knight
6450
GC stated himself that the hybrid tax isn't going away in cataclysm.

PS - The developers have never stated a hard number (5%), that was made up by players.


It was stated by GC on the WotLK beta forums. It was not made up by players. Since then he has said he was just throwing out a number.


It was an example. If remember correctly, it was very obvious that he was just throwing out a number. Unfortunately it seems like some players weren't intelligent enough to figure that out.


It is amazing how large the effects of an offhand comment have been.
Reply Quote
85 Draenei Shaman
9780
Hybrid tax is not 5%. It is a MARGINAL difference. They have never specified a number.

The addition of specializations allows them to easily tune damage via knobs.
Edited by Orcheon on 12/2/2010 1:02 PM PST
Reply Quote
Thank you Reckyo!!! <3

Is there a date associated with that sticky, by chance?
Reply Quote
85 Undead Priest
6340
Thank you Reckyo!!! <3

Is there a date associated with that sticky, by chance?

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=20677330431&sid=1
Reply Quote
90 Orc Warlock
6345
Hybrid tax is not 5%. It is a MARGINAL difference. They have never specified a number.

The addition of specializations allows them to easily tune damage via knobs.


Those knobs aren't turned for Affliction. Our knob revolves around a talent located in the Destruction tree. The whole "allows them to easily tune damage via knobs" idea is going to backfire.

In the end though, there is no Hybrid tax and there will never be a Hybrid tax as long as class balance is revolved around PvP success in Arena and/or Rated Battlegrounds.
Reply Quote
85 Draenei Shaman
9780
Hybrid tax is not 5%. It is a MARGINAL difference. They have never specified a number.

The addition of specializations allows them to easily tune damage via knobs.


Those knobs aren't turned for Affliction. Our knob revolves around a talent located in the Destruction tree. The whole "allows them to easily tune damage via knobs" idea is going to backfire.

In the end though, there is no Hybrid tax and there will never be a Hybrid tax as long as class balance is revolved around PvP success in Arena and/or Rated Battlegrounds.


They balance around both PvE and PvP. To say they only balance around one or the other is ridiculous.

I will admit, though, that they have moved towards balancing around PvP and then proceeding to balance PvE encounters around these changes.
Edited by Orcheon on 12/2/2010 1:37 PM PST
Reply Quote
100 Orc Shaman
14830
I think Hybrid Tax is dead.

Deserves to be, tbh.


What he said
Reply Quote
85 Tauren Druid
10715
It is amazing how large the effects of an offhand comment have been.


It was not an offhand comment. It was quite calculated.

The "5%" portion might have been offhand, or claimed to be offhand, but nonetheless - make no mistake, without that policy the amount of QQ over hybrids versus pures would be much more hotly debated.

As it stands now, I expect pures to still slowly migrate toward hybrids. I've done it twice. I originally started playing this game in 2004 as a pure and migrated to a hybrid. Again, last year - I gave my pure hunter another shot. I enjoyed her up until 4.0. My problem with my hunter is truly with how focus is implemented but in the end, I'm back on my hybrids.

In a game where there are achievements, mounts and companion pets that are rare and soulbound (not BoA) - players interested in collecting these things will be nudged toward hybrids, because those characters have a better chance at remaining viable at their jobs and not eclipsed by others.
Edited by Tuvael on 12/3/2010 6:35 AM PST
Reply Quote
85 Gnome Rogue
7290
    Being a pure, you already have fewer raid spots available to you from the get-go. That's a disadvantage no matter how you want to spin it.

    A lot of guilds will let hybrids pick up gear for their offspec that would otherwise be DE'd.

    Caster hybrids can now use the same gear for DPS and healing because of the spirit->hit conversion talents.

    Hybrids can get faster queues while still building a DPS set, have more options for raiding, and have more varied play styles.


As someone who has leveled several pures and hybrids, you simply get a lot more gameplay value for your time put into a hybrid. If a pure class isn't capable of doing slightly more damage than a hybrid then there's no reason to level one other than RP reasons. At that point the class is obsolete from a min/max raiding perspective.
Reply Quote
100 Tauren Shaman
11960
No. There's no reason for it, because both pures and hybrids bring useful utility to a raid.


The only way such a philosophy would be fair is if there were classes that did not have a DPS spec, but had three Tank specs, or three Heal specs, which we know will not happen.

Why should a hybrid be taxed at all? Anyone who thinks just because they can only be dps, that they should pull bigger numbers, are complete idiots. Druid and Paladins' dps specs should be on par with all dps specs, its unfair to tax them because they have multiple roles, but choose to dps. Why would raids bring a ret paladin or feral druid at all, knowing they wont be able to perform as say a rogue or mage in equal gear/skill? So please, get over it, and stop holding your hand out.


The option to switch roles to tanking or healing cannot be ignored. It doesn't matter if you, personally, never switch. It doesn't matter if you don't change in this raid or for the next 3 months of raids - just having the option to change does represent value that has to be weighed in the equation.

Especially in a game where achievements, mounts, and companion pets are bound to characters and not player accounts.

Bad logic is bad.

If the developers agreed with your logic, DPS hybrids would be dead for good, and nobody would use them.

The only DKs, Warriors, Paladins, Druids, Shaman, and Priests you see would only be specced heal or tank. Not DPS. Which is not good for this game.
Edited by Matuk on 12/3/2010 7:47 AM PST
Reply Quote
100 Troll Shaman
10190
No. There's no reason for it, because both pures and hybrids bring useful utility to a raid.


The only way such a philosophy would be fair is if there were classes that did not have a DPS spec, but had three Tank specs, or three Heal specs, which we know will not happen.

Why should a hybrid be taxed at all? Anyone who thinks just because they can only be dps, that they should pull bigger numbers, are complete idiots. Druid and Paladins' dps specs should be on par with all dps specs, its unfair to tax them because they have multiple roles, but choose to dps. Why would raids bring a ret paladin or feral druid at all, knowing they wont be able to perform as say a rogue or mage in equal gear/skill? So please, get over it, and stop holding your hand out.


The option to switch roles to tanking or healing cannot be ignored. It doesn't matter if you, personally, never switch. It doesn't matter if you don't change in this raid or for the next 3 months of raids - just having the option to change does represent value that has to be weighed in the equation.

Especially in a game where achievements, mounts, and companion pets are bound to characters and not player accounts.

Bad logic is bad.

If the developers agreed with your logic, DPS hybrids would be dead for good, and nobody would use them.

The only DKs, Warriors, Paladins, Druids, Shaman, and Priests you see would only be specced heal or tank. Not DPS. Which is not good for this game.
Bad logic is most certainly bad. The hybrid tax has nothing to do with raiding or what utility is brought to raiding, and does not affect how people are chosen to form raids.
Reply Quote
80 Gnome Warlock
2860
at 15,000dps, a 5% difference would be a marginal 750dps, which is easily surpassed by player skill/gear level.


^ this
Reply Quote
85 Blood Elf Mage
4825
LET THE DAMN HORSE REST IN PEACE FFS!!!
Reply Quote
85 Tauren Druid
10715

Bad logic is bad.

If the developers agreed with your logic, DPS hybrids would be dead for good, and nobody would use them.

The only DKs, Warriors, Paladins, Druids, Shaman, and Priests you see would only be specced heal or tank. Not DPS. Which is not good for this game.


Logic is not bad just because you do not agree with it.

Hybrids can fill multiple roles and as such, must have some negative to offset the additional positive value that brings to the player. I've been playing this game since before release and I can tell you from personal experience - each time hybrids are buff to be more competitive with pures in the DPS role, the population of pure classes get smaller.

While I'm not saying that it is a bad thing - certainly some players would rather DPS as the playstyle their hybrid offers them, the hybrid player cannot ignore the fact that they really do have more options open to them, as a player, in a game where there are many achievements, mounts, toys, and companion pets that are locked to an individual character.

When hybrids and pure classes are equal in their DPS output - hybrids bring much more value to the table than a pure does. While this is not necessarily game breaking for the pure class - there is the potential that it can be.
Edited by Tuvael on 12/3/2010 10:05 AM PST
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]