Pure DPS = Hybrid DPS + 5%?

85 Tauren Druid
10715
Bad logic is most certainly bad. The hybrid tax has nothing to do with raiding or what utility is brought to raiding, and does not affect how people are chosen to form raids.


This is a false statement and you know it. There is power in being a hybrid.

For example, just last night I was running a heroic CoS with a pug in LFD on my shadowpriest. The healer (a pally) was in pretty weak gear but the tank was a "gung-ho I ain't stoppin' for nobody" type. He rushed on ahead without even looking back.

Twice in that 10 minute instance, he almost died. I mean - under 5% health. As a shadowpriest, I saved his life and the group by shielding and going heals. After he was caught back up, the flailing healer caught her breath and we continued on. Even while healing the tank, I still had 4~5k dps on the meters. I was back in shadow and melting faces before combat ended.

My mage and hunter would have been struggling to hit invis or feign death in those circumstances - it would have most certainly been a wipe had I not been playing a hybrid to maximum capacity. I was filling a ranged dps slot (same slot that a mage and hunter would fill). I was worth at least 200% more to that heroic group as a shadowpriest than a pure class.

Now in raids, this utility is minimized greatly - but it is still present. It's still entirely possible that a raid may call on their shadowpriests, elemental shamans and boomkins to step up healing in a close-call situation. It may be even more of a realization now that healer mana in Cataclysm requires management and isn't faceroll, like in Wrath.

You guys can downplay what it means to be a hybrid all you want - the fact remains, a hybrid character will always have more potential value to the player than a pure class - regardless of whether the player recognizes it or not.
Edited by Tuvael on 12/3/2010 10:36 AM PST
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100 Troll Shaman
10190
Bad logic is most certainly bad. The hybrid tax has nothing to do with raiding or what utility is brought to raiding, and does not affect how people are chosen to form raids.


This is a false statement and you know it. There is power in being a hybrid.

For example, just last night I was running a heroic CoS with a pug in LFD on my shadowpriest. The healer (a pally) was in pretty weak gear but the tank was a "gung-ho I ain't stoppin' for nobody" type. He rushed on ahead without even looking back.

Twice in that 10 minute instance, he almost died. I mean - under 5% health. As a shadowpriest, I saved his life and the group by shielding and going heals. After he was caught back up, the flailing healer caught her breath and we continued on. Even while healing the tank, I still had 4~5k dps on the meters. I was back in shadow and melting faces before combat ended.

My mage and hunter would have been struggling to hit invis or feign death in those circumstances - it would have most certainly been a wipe had I not been playing a hybrid to maximum capacity. I was filling a ranged dps slot (same slot that a mage and hunter would fill). I was worth at least 200% more to that heroic group as a shadowpriest than a pure class.

Now in raids, this utility is minimized greatly - but it is still present. It's still entirely possible that a raid may call on their shadowpriests, elemental shamans and boomkins to step up healing in a close-call situation. It may be even more of a realization now that healer mana in Cataclysm requires management and isn't faceroll, like in Wrath.

You guys can downplay what it means to be a hybrid all you want - the fact remains, a hybrid character will always have more potential value to the player than a pure class - regardless of whether the player recognizes it or not.

Well, I think we are somewhat in agreement, but perhaps I wasn't clear or you misunderstand or I was too vague or something.
But I will disagree with you on some things.
Off healing is not what being a hybrid is about. Off healing is a utility of a dps hybrid.
Hybrid != cool utility
Hybrid is about switching roles.
I could cite some situation where having a Pure utility is best to have, but cherry picking utilities that favor certain situations to better people's arguments is what I hate about these hybrid tax threads.

Listen, the hybrid tax is in place as a function to balance this game as a whole, to help blizz ensure that their classes they design are being played at an acceptable representation. It is not specific to solo play, 2 man play, 5 man play, 10 mans, 25 mans...etc etc...It is about gameplay, which encompasses everything. It has nothing to do with raiding specifically or who is chosen to come to a raid. Hybrid dps are not sat because of it.

It has everything to do with what players choose at the character select screen, which happens BEFORE you quest, solo, get achievements, raid...etc etc..
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90 Orc Warlock
6345
must ... resist ... grabbing ... whooping ... stick ... to ... beat ... dead ... horse ... with ...

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80 Draenei Shaman
2755
I cannot believe the unreal selfish arrogance of the hybrids players in this thread.
Wait no, greed is all too common *sigh*
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100 Tauren Shaman
11960
When hybrids and pure classes are equal in their DPS output - hybrids bring much more value to the table than a pure does. While this is not necessarily game breaking for the pure class - there is the potential that it can be.

Incorrect.

Pures brings things that hybrids do not, and vice versa.

If it is de facto guaranteed that a pure will always pull more DPS than a hybrid, there will never be a reason to bring a hybrid DPS spec to a raid.
Edited by Matuk on 12/3/2010 1:25 PM PST
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100 Troll Shaman
10190

When hybrids and pure classes are equal in their DPS output - hybrids bring much more value to the table than a pure does. While this is not necessarily game breaking for the pure class - there is the potential that it can be.

Incorrect.

Pures brings things that hybrids do not, and vice versa.

If it is de facto guaranteed that a pure will always pull more DPS than a hybrid, there will never be a reason to bring a hybrid DPS spec to a raid.

Truth.

But the "hybrid tax" will never guarantee pure dps > hybrid dps.
Edited by Vargun on 12/3/2010 1:35 PM PST
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85 Tauren Druid
10715

Well, I think we are somewhat in agreement, but perhaps I wasn't clear or you misunderstand or I was too vague or something.
But I will disagree with you on some things.
Off healing is not what being a hybrid is about. Off healing is a utility of a dps hybrid.
Hybrid != cool utility
Hybrid is about switching roles.
I could cite some situation where having a Pure utility is best to have, but cherry picking utilities that favor certain situations to better people's arguments is what I hate about these hybrid tax threads.

Listen, the hybrid tax is in place as a function to balance this game as a whole, to help blizz ensure that their classes they design are being played at an acceptable representation. It is not specific to solo play, 2 man play, 5 man play, 10 mans, 25 mans...etc etc...It is about gameplay, which encompasses everything. It has nothing to do with raiding specifically or who is chosen to come to a raid. Hybrid dps are not sat because of it.

It has everything to do with what players choose at the character select screen, which happens BEFORE you quest, solo, get achievements, raid...etc etc..


The point is in heroics - healing hybrids are able to switch roles immediately. That is not something a pure can ever do. Sure - it's utility but that utility has to be weighed into the balance of that class.

Yes, the hybrid tax is based on roles. While I, as a shadowpriest, would not attempt to heal a raid as shadow - when the boss is at 2% and a healer dies or is dry on mana - shadow or not, I'm going to probably step up and try to keep the tank standing for that last 2%. Pure DPS characters can never do that.

To top that off, as a shadowpriest - I can punch that little dual spec button and assume the role of a full time healer if one of our healers has to leave early or doesn't show up. I still earn JP, CP, rep and have a chance at winning main spec gear for my priest along with being able to use any toy loot that drops in the raid.

To accomplish the same thing with a pure DPS class, I would have to log off my mage or hunter - log on my healer. (Note: I'd have to have a max level and geared healer to start with.) On top of all that - I would have to sacrifice the ability to get any loot for my main, including any JP and CPs earned. Any toy loot that I won (from achieves, mounts, etc) would mostly likely be BoP to my healer and not tradeable to my main.

The ability for hybrids to switch roles and retain those benefits can be pretty large compared to what a pure DPS class must do. While I'm not saying that pure DPS classes must be head and shoulders above hybrid DPS - there must be some concession made, either to the hybrid or to the pure - for the increased value that a hybrid innate has baked in.
Edited by Tuvael on 12/3/2010 1:39 PM PST
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85 Tauren Druid
10715
When hybrids and pure classes are equal in their DPS output - hybrids bring much more value to the table than a pure does. While this is not necessarily game breaking for the pure class - there is the potential that it can be.

Incorrect.

Pures brings things that hybrids do not, and vice versa.

If it is de facto guaranteed that a pure will always pull more DPS than a hybrid, there will never be a reason to bring a hybrid DPS spec to a raid.


Hybrid value > pure value.

The only unique "buffs: a pure class has now is tricks or misdirect - both have been so de-emphasized that now they are only really useful for picking up adds.

Once again - I'm not saying that pures need to do more DPS. I suspect there are other ways that pures could receive some potential value.
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100 Troll Shaman
10190

Well, I think we are somewhat in agreement, but perhaps I wasn't clear or you misunderstand or I was too vague or something.
But I will disagree with you on some things.
Off healing is not what being a hybrid is about. Off healing is a utility of a dps hybrid.
Hybrid != cool utility
Hybrid is about switching roles.
I could cite some situation where having a Pure utility is best to have, but cherry picking utilities that favor certain situations to better people's arguments is what I hate about these hybrid tax threads.

Listen, the hybrid tax is in place as a function to balance this game as a whole, to help blizz ensure that their classes they design are being played at an acceptable representation. It is not specific to solo play, 2 man play, 5 man play, 10 mans, 25 mans...etc etc...It is about gameplay, which encompasses everything. It has nothing to do with raiding specifically or who is chosen to come to a raid. Hybrid dps are not sat because of it.

It has everything to do with what players choose at the character select screen, which happens BEFORE you quest, solo, get achievements, raid...etc etc..


The point is in heroics - healing hybrids are able to switch roles immediately. That is not something a pure can ever do. Sure - it's utility but that utility has to be weighed into the balance of that class.

Yes, the hybrid tax is based on roles. While I, as a shadowpriest, would not attempt to heal a raid as shadow - when the boss is at 2% and a healer dies or is dry on mana - shadow or not, I'm going to probably step up and try to keep the tank standing for that last 2%. Pure DPS characters can never do that.

To top that off, as a shadowpriest - I can punch that little dual spec button and assume the role of a full time healer if one of our healers has to leave early or doesn't show up. I still earn JP, CP, rep and have a chance at winning main spec gear for my priest along with being able to use any toy loot that drops in the raid.

To accomplish the same thing with a pure DPS class, I would have to log off my mage or hunter - log on my healer. (Note: I'd have to have a max level and geared healer to start with.) On top of all that - I would have to sacrifice the ability to get any loot for my main, including any JP and CPs earned. Any toy loot that I won (from achieves, mounts, etc) would mostly likely be BoP to my healer and not tradeable to my main.

The ability for hybrids to switch roles and retain those benefits can be pretty large compared to what a pure DPS class must do. While I'm not saying that pure DPS classes must be head and shoulders above hybrid DPS - there must be some concession made, either to the hybrid or to the pure - for the increased value that a hybrid innate has baked in.

Well I think we are in agreement that hybrids tend to be more attractive to play, so there needs to be something to balance, and that something is currently the hybrid tax.

I see a lot of people stating hybrids "bring more to the table". Which could be true or false depending how you take that. A lot of people would say, "No they don't", because they translated it to mean "Hybrid dps bring more to the raid", which is not necessarily true. What is true is hybrids bring more diversity to the personal player experience. They can tank, heal, or dps, along with other utilities. Pures can only dps with other utilities.

Yes, you form groups and raids with certain utilities in mind. But the hybrid tax has no affect on that. How you form a comp may differ from what someone else forms. If you min/max, you might sit people for other people for certain utility for certain fights even, druids for rezzes..emergency tranqs...etc... But this really has nothing to do with the hybrid tax. This is more of which utility do you want. The only way the hybrid tax could effect raiding is if pures were brought in favor of hybrids because of it, and that is not happening.
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Not sure that they need a hybrid tax. I played hybrids during the last expansion and there is a HUGE downside to them. If you can heal - you get locked into healing. If you can tank you will get locked into tanking. Most hybrids spend all their time longing to DPS and rarely get to do it.

If you play a pure your getting to DPS - end of story. Sure it does make it harder to get raid spots..but you will get a fun role.
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Hybrid tax logic:
Warriors and DKs should be better tanks than druids and paladins, right?
Shamans and priests should be better healers than druids and paladins, right?
And EVERYONE should be a better dps than a druid and a paladin, right?

Paladins and druids should be the worst at everything, right? But with paladins being slightly better than even druids because druids have TWO dps spcs. Druids should just stink at everything. That's balance.
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85 Troll Death Knight
0
12/06/2010 6:58 AMPosted by Dwarfstomp
Hybrid tax logic:
Warriors and DKs should be better tanks than druids and paladins, right?
Shamans and priests should be better healers than druids and paladins, right?
And EVERYONE should be a better dps than a druid and a paladin, right?

Paladins and druids should be the worst at everything, right? But with paladins being slightly better than even druids because druids have TWO dps spcs. Druids should just stink at everything. That's balance.

Well, no. Because there weren't 'degrees of hybridity' or whatever you want to call it.

The Hybrid tax is/was 'Can you perform more than one role?' and not 'How many roles can you perform?'
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90 Orc Hunter
8695
The mythical hybrid tax doesn't exist; never did; GC has a habit of saying things that aren't true (see sig).

However if it did exist it'd only apply to DPS since there are DPS "pures" and there aren't pure Healer or pure Tanks. I.e. all healing classes have dps or tank spec choices in their class and all tanking classes have dps or heal spec choices in their class. So yes - all tanks should have an equality and all heals should have an equality whether their "hybrid" or not.

The hypothetical debate about an imaginary dead horse over a mythical entity only applies to DPS roles.
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85 Troll Death Knight
0
12/06/2010 8:45 AMPosted by Venetar
The mythical hybrid tax doesn't exist; never did; GC has a habit of saying things that aren't true (see sig).

What signature?
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85 Blood Elf Mage
4825
12/03/2010 1:04 PMPosted by Alkii
must ... resist ... grabbing ... whooping ... stick ... to ... beat ... dead ... horse ... with ...


He got enough beating. His grave is getting deepier everyday because people still beat on it...
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