World of Warcraft®

Could you calculate 2 SB a minute? I'm not understanding why you dont.

I mean, there's no flexibility or "saving it" concept to this. It's on a 30 second cooldown exactly. We're going to be using it every time it's up short of a complete gimmick of a fight.

Could you calculate 2 SB a minute? I'm not understanding why you dont.

I mean, there's no flexibility or "saving it" concept to this. It's on a 30 second cooldown exactly. We're going to be using it every time it's up short of a complete gimmick of a fight.

I don't do it because then I'd have to calculate all the other cooldowns, but here you go:

Just damage taken:
Warrior with SB on CD: 1,815,759
Damage taken less healing:
Warriors with SB on CD: 1,645,874

For comparison's sake, the original numbers:
Warrior (w/1 SB per minute): 1,879,506
Warrior (w/1 SB per minute + healing): 1,707,325

Edit:
And for completeness's sake, here's with zero SB:
Warrior (w/0 SB per minute): 1,987,437
Warrior (w/0 SB per minute + healing): 1,815,257

If I include 2 SB's per minute, I get people who say that "we're balanced around using SB constantly!". If I put zero SB's per minute, I get people who say that I'm biased towards Warriors. The fact of the matter is that it doesn't really make a big difference either way you decide to do it. In addition, using abilities like Divine Protection and Barkskin on CD aren't really great ways to use them. It's much better to wait to use them for burst.

The minor cooldowns just don't reduce a ton of damage.

This forum keeps eating my posts.

Did you factor in using Barkskin/etc every minute if shield block is being used once per minute akin to them? Maybe you already wrote this and I missed it. I'm just skimming forums between trash packs atm.

No he didn't factor in the other tank cooldowns, that's why he only did 1 SB per minute originally.

Please calculate Data of Rune of Swordshattering (Runeforging Enchant)

My main concerns is if WoG and bear armor (bug/fix) aren't dealt with. Obviously with those 2 things fixed, the numbers are very close. My other issue is that warriors are still last in physical damage(even if it is close) and they aren't even close to the others when it comes to magical since warriors take more passively and 1 SB does not compare to any of the other 1min CD.

No he didn't factor in the other tank cooldowns, that's why he only did 1 SB per minute originally.

If that is the case, we're still missing a CD.

I am also wondering Zarko if these numbers are based off the old SB or the possible hotfix that was posted about? If not, could you post those numbers?

Please calculate Data of Rune of Swordshattering (Runeforging Enchant)

Why? Yes, it will provide more mitigation. However, it will only provide roughly 1.5 hits in comparison to his current value (and remove that much from the heal) for a net of about 1.07 hits stopped. We're going to see that much deviation just from the Sim and you'll see more than that depending on the DK playing. If you want to know the respective value, there is another thread or go post in the DS thread and I'll post lots of numbers, otherwise his numbers are still basically there.

If that is the case, we're still missing a CD.

That is why he only used one. That leaves the other one (you're on a 30s CD here) as your one minute CD. Either way, you're not talking huge changes. Read his previous post on the matter.

If that is the case, we're still missing a CD.

That is why he only used one. That leaves the other one (you're on a 30s CD here) as your one minute CD. Either way, you're not talking huge changes. Read his previous post on the matter.

Except you can't use it that way. You cannot SB at t=0, t=45, t=60.

Please calculate Data of Rune of Swordshattering (Runeforging Enchant)

Why? Yes, it will provide more mitigation. However, it will only provide roughly 1.5 hits in comparison to his current value (and remove that much from the heal) for a net of about 1.07 hits stopped. We're going to see that much deviation just from the Sim and you'll see more than that depending on the DK playing. If you want to know the respective value, there is another thread or go post in the DS thread and I'll post lots of numbers, otherwise his numbers are still basically there.

If that is the case, we're still missing a CD.

That is why he only used one. That leaves the other one (you're on a 30s CD here) as your one minute CD. Either way, you're not talking huge changes. Read his previous post on the matter.

Oh I get it now. Sorry my brain isn't working. I ran out of coffee today.

Add that to http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1196140528 and if anything shield block might end up a little overpowered.

I still think we need some form of spell dmg reduction cd though. Even if its minor.(But that is a different subject, outside of this dmg discussion)

Except you can't use it that way. You cannot SB at t=0, t=45, t=60.

I know it doesn't work that way. Every calculation in the thread is theoretical which means each equation makes assumptions and depends on a number of variables. His thought process was to include one occurrence and leave the other so that he wouldn't have to try to plug in the various 1 minute CDs for all other tanks; he could just say that omitted reduction is equivalent to the other CDs and call it there. Yes, he probably should just leave it out. However, he explained why he did it that way. It's a completely valid reason to do what he did. You can argue that it isn't truly a CD if you're chaining it to actually get that reduction. Go ahead, but you complicate the model and have to then branch into a giant mess to compare the different classes. His goal was to provide the best baseline he could without complicating the model.

I agree with Zarko's use of 1 SB as the best compromise for the situation, but it does mean that warrior numbers should be ahead of other tanks with it considering the limitations Charsi mentioned plus it not mitigating any magical damage.

I am also wondering Zarko if these numbers are based off the old SB or the possible hotfix that was posted about? If not, could you post those numbers?

Thanks for the good work. I'll second this question. We're you able to include the additional critical block that is apparently provided by SB, but not in the tooltip? (btw, thanks also for copying that over from the EU forums) Or are you treating that like a bug?

Yeah, imagine if we then had to involve all the 1 min CDs in this sim. Then we would get into some seriously murky situations where we have 2 sbs a minute compared to a single barkskin, compared to a single pally/dk equivalent CD.

This isn't realistic because I know we all don't use those 1 min cds exactly on CD. I know I use them for say, the first few seconds of the pull, aka alpha, then we also use them for scary situations where our healers are stressed, but we're not ready to use our big CDs.

Say something like, oh no, 3 healers got spiked in HM marrowgar(relevant content mirite?), pop barkskin, require 20% less healing from strictly physical damage.

One thing I certainly do know right now:

Paladins are the tank by which all others are going to be measured against with WoG like this. Which really is not a good byproduct of the whole self-healing thing.

We've known this for a while, well..it's been talked about even since DKs were the talk of the town, every 5 posts we'd see towel chime in with his, "Don't forget about WoG guys!" mantra. I really do agree with him though, as I have on previous occasions, spamming a heal ever 3 HoPo in challenging content is nowhere near fun. Not even close.

It's not compelling gameplay, it's not interactive, it's passive advantages which requires all of one button pressing with a pseudo-cooldown(aka gaining 3 HoPo).

I realize that WoG is in a very difficult situation. If they make it marginal, paladins will never ever use it. It'll be relegated to the trash category and people will years from now harken back to the time when it was, "useful." Though if they leave it is, guess what Paladins, get used to spamming that baby to work at maximum efficiency. Otherwise you're going to be, "doing it wrong."

I thank you immensely for your efforts Zark again. I'm actually amazed that Druids are in such a good place(without the bugged armor that is), when only a few weeks ago druids had just come off their big nerfbat session and looked the worse for wear.

I agree with Zarko's use of 1 SB as the best compromise for the situation, but it does mean that warrior numbers should be ahead of other tanks with it considering the limitations Charsi mentioned plus it not mitigating any magical damage.

There's almost no difference between being 1 damage ahead, and being 40K behind. It's one hit. The difference between DKs and warriors, for example, is one hit. Anything within one to two hits is fine to my mind. Really, anything within 10% is all fine. It's all in the neighborhood where you don't notice it.

There's still a larger difference between a tank who keeps his debuffs up and one who doesn't. Skill with communication and positioning probably matters even more.

Please calculate Data of Rune of Swordshattering (Runeforging Enchant)

I figured I'd do this for completeness's sake.

I only did 10 runs, while Dos did 50 for the original sheet, so this has higher error bars, as it were.

Damage taken (no healing): 1,933,038
Damage taken net (50% overheal): 1,531,347

Not terribly surprising. I think we all knew that 4% avoidance is better at pure damage mitigation. I would still use the Stam/Armor runeforge as a DK.

Thanks for the good work. I'll second this question. We're you able to include the additional critical block that is apparently provided by SB, but not in the tooltip? (btw, thanks also for copying that over from the EU forums) Or are you treating that like a bug?

Yes. Sorry, I forgot to mention this in the OP. I believe this change to be intended, not a bug. It fixes several scaling problems that SB had previously.

Now here's the second part of this post:

I put our tanks through a fight with a Patchwerk style boss, who just hits hard, and slowly. Think of him like Gamon.

Our boss hits for 110,000 on a 2.0 second swing speed timer (reduced to 2.4 seconds after Attack Speed debuff)

That gives the following results per hit:

Damage per hit by class:
Paladin: 39,713
Warrior: 39,713
Deathknight: 41,241
Bear: 34,380--with high armor
Bear: 39,904--with 33% thick hide

Let's take a look at how they stack up just in damage taken, so no healing:
AgiBear: 1,384,124--with high armor
MasteryBear: 1,392,485--with high armor
AgiBear: 1,713,048--with 33% thick hide
MasteryBear: 1,737,871--with 33% thick hide
Warrior (w/1 SB per minute): 1,879,506
Paladin: 1,931,246
Deathknight: 2,067,994

As you can see, DKs take the most damage (which they make up for later with healing), while Druids take the least damage. With their current armor value, they take *by far* the least damage.

If you'd like an explanation of how Savage Defense and Blood Shield work, I'm more than happy to give them to you, but it's too long to fit here. I'd like to thank Fasc, for his excellent Druid SS, and Lichloathe, for BloodSim, his excellent DK simulator. I'll include links at the end for those.

Now, here's that same list, but with healing included. All self healing affects are assumed to suffer 50% overheal, while healing increasing affects are assumed to suffer 40% overheal.

Paladin (with 3 minutes of WoG, Seal of Insight and Divinity): 1,166,261
AgiBear: 1,292,643--with high armor
MasteryBear: 1,299,501--with high armor
AgiBear: 1,621,567--with 33% thick hide
Paladin (with no WoG): 1,632,095
MasteryBear: 1,645,187--with 33% thick hide
Deathknight (with DS and RT on CD): 1,661,835
Warrior (w/1 SB per minute): 1,707,325

I wanted to highlight how close things are if WoG is not used and Bear armor is set back to pre-4.03a levels.

I'd like to heartily thank Anothriel, Dosvidaniya, Wrathblood, Warstehdruid, Lichloathe, Fasc and others for their help on this project. Please let me know if I missed something, or if you can think of a way to improve things.

Quick Q&A:
Why didn't you include Blood Craze?
Because it's really, really, really bad. If you'd like, subtract 40K from the warrior's healing, and you'll have Blood Craze included.

How did you handle Savage Defense/Blood Shield?
By using the SS from this thread: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1083360391 for Savage Defense
And by using Lichloathe's BloodSim, found here: http://bloodsim.codeplex.com/
They're both excellent resources, and improved upon my own very weak early results. The only changes I made was subtracting 5% of the savage defense procs due to latency.

Other resources used:
http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t29453-combat_ratings_level_85_cataclysm/


Thanks for looking, please don't QQ and please don't troll.

Zarko,

Nice work as always. Don't disagree with any of your choices, but I've got some clarification questions.

- WoG scaling with Vengeance or no?
- Is WoG 50% overheal or 12.5% from the last version?
- Does "No WoG' include both SoI and Divinity?
- Others have already asked but I may as well, but which version of SB?
- Is Warrior using IV?

Zarko,

Nice work as always. Don't disagree with any of your choices, but I've got some clarification questions.

And thanks, as always, for reading and for all the help. I

- WoG scaling with Vengeance or no?

Yes. It's been like this for a while now. I gave the value for not using WoG (which is what happens when you take away vengeance scaling). That was sorta what I did instead (since the value is very similar to WoG with no vengeance and not using SoI).

- Is WoG 50% overheal or 12.5% from the last version?

Since GbtL still has the overheal, it's the 17.5% overheal that I used before. That number is a bit of a simplification, but it works.

- Does "No WoG' include both SoI and Divinity?

Yes. The number for SoI and Divinity is really similar to the number for no Vengeance WoG and no SoI, so I just chose that one.

- Others have already asked but I may as well, but which version of SB?

the one that I posted about today. It seems the most likely version.

- Is Warrior using IV?

Yes. There's a new summary page on the Google Docs sheet that has a lot of the nitty gritty details, so I didn't post them all in the OP (I thought it was harder to read that way). Still not using Blood Craze because it's still really bad.

I'm sort of surprised that the SB change doesn't move warriors ahead more, but I guess when you increase a relatively small amount it just doesn't change much.

Tanks look pretty close in terms of total damage taken. I guess if that's their goal, they've succeeded fairly well once they fix the "obvious" stuff.

Ok, cool thanks. When I get home this weekend I'll check it out in detail.