Healers and those #%@&ing Dispels

85 Troll Priest
6555
I've noticed a lot of talk involving dispelling and PvP concerning the viability of healers lately. To an extent, a lot of a healer's ability comes from magical buffs that are indeed dispellable. Druids, disc priests, and shamans have a lot of their stock in buffs, HoTs/absorbs, and valuable CDs.

That's why it's so detrimental to see a DPS spam dispel without much consequence. Blizz had stated that they don't want PvP to be whoever can press their dispel the fastest. It's hard to balance dispels from a DPS's point of view because mana is practically a non-issue for them. The anti-dispel talents were taken out, and a 5 minute CD can be countered by spamming dispel for 5 seconds.

Increasing mana costs for dispels, I think, won't change much. That's why I propose adding a 3-5 second CD onto all offensive dispels.

This wouldn't solve everything, and I don't believe it should. Buffs should have counters. Guardian Angel and Lifebloom should have weaknesses. It's the overabundance that's excessive.

TL;DR
Give all offensive dispels a short (3 - 5 sec) CD.
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85 Tauren Priest
5875
Mana-based damage dealers are balanced around mana being a non-issue as long as they're operating as intended, executing their rotation. Mana isn't intended to be eternal though, even for them.

I'm sure the developers have considered the idea of dispels having a cooldown, and are probably waiting to see how the mana costs shake out at 85.

Increasing mana costs for dispels, I think, won't change much.

Do you feel that way because you think the current numbers are too low, or because you think that mana costs will never impact the damage dealers' decisions as long as they're designed the way they are?
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85 Troll Priest
6555
Do you feel that way because you think the current numbers are too low, or because you think that mana costs will never impact the damage dealers' decisions as long as they're designed the way they are?


Considering all I've read pertaining to DPS rotations and mana issues, I'd say that the DPS and their ability to restore mana through their basic rotation proves the true problem. You're right; no one has infinite mana, yet I'm fairly confident that healers will run out faster than their DPS counterparts in PvP. Yes, some specs sacrifice mana-efficiency for higher output, but I don't think that's the norm we want to be balancing around.

And if dispels are upped in general, won't that affect healers too? Just because the DPS has to spend more to use it, doesn't mean I won't be punished just as much. I'm guessing that dispels are exponentially increased in mana costs just like all the other healing spells, and increasing the cost so it will be punishing to spam it will be not fun x2.

But yes, I don't want to be a gloom-and-doom crier that seems to be on every thread these days. Cata is coming. We'll wait till then. I just was wondering if a small CD would provide a good balance to dispel protection and heavily reliant abilities like PW:S/Divine Aegis, Lifebloom, and etc.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
5495
No.....adding a CD on dispels is a god awful idea, it would be terrible in dungeons and aid trying to keep people alive in a fight like Helgan in Naxx where constant dispelling is a must

keep yer damn pvp out of my pve
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85 Troll Priest
6555
No.....adding a CD on dispels is a god awful idea, it would be terrible in dungeons and aid trying to keep people alive in a fight like Helgan in Naxx where constant dispelling is a must

keep yer damn pvp out of my pve


I'd understand what you were saying if I said CDs on dispels. I didn't. I just included offensive dispels.

Don't know why you'd be dispelling the boss during the dance though. GL with that. :P
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85 Tauren Priest
5875
Considering all I've read pertaining to DPS rotations and mana issues, I'd say that the DPS and their ability to restore mana through their basic rotation proves the true problem. You're right; no one has infinite mana, yet I'm fairly confident that healers will run out faster than their DPS counterparts in PvP. Yes, some specs sacrifice mana-efficiency for higher output, but I don't think that's the norm we want to be balancing around.

Healers are supposed to run out faster than their DPS counterparts in PvP. Mana-based classes are being designed to never run out of mana, even in PvP, as long as they're sticking to their rotation.

And if dispels are upped in general, won't that affect healers too? Just because the DPS has to spend more to use it, doesn't mean I won't be punished just as much. I'm guessing that dispels are exponentially increased in mana costs just like all the other healing spells, and increasing the cost so it will be punishing to spam it will be not fun x2.

There are ways around that. For example, they could tack on a discount to the healing trees' innate bonuses, or restore mana on successfully removing an unfriendly effect. It isn't impossible to make the same spells work differently for different specs. ;)

But yes, I don't want to be a gloom-and-doom crier that seems to be on every thread these days. Cata is coming. We'll wait till then. I just was wondering if a small CD would provide a good balance to dispel protection and heavily reliant abilities like PW:S/Divine Aegis, Lifebloom, and etc.

I think a CD would have some bad effects on offensive and defensive dispelling in PvP (buff fodder playing a much larger role again), and even in PvE, though it would only affect Priests.
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85 Troll Priest
6555
How would a mana-reduction for dispel in the healing trees help the situation? It's not that dispels are too expensive for healers. It's that DPS counters can spam dispels without much consequence. That's the true problem I was trying to fix.

By adding on a short CD to offensive dispels, that would curve the dispel spam problem. We've both agreed that mana simply isn't an issue to DPS. Their rotation provides that, so upping the cost, and thus adding on a healer's talent option, would be pointless. :(

This is all in an attempt to add constructive pointers to people QQing about their buffs being neutralized so quickly by DPS without the said DPS being penalized somehow.

P.S. To address the priest problem of having the offensive and defensive rolled together, there could be an internal CD for the offensive part. It could act as a short debuff on the priest, or have some other restriction. They've done it with Penance having two actions for one spell, so I can see Blizz working their magic again with both aspects of dispel.
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85 Night Elf Druid
5630

Absolutely not. The only way I get any type of healer support on my mage is by spell stealing priest/druid/shaman buffs. The only way I get heals for that matter.


(It seems we don't have good offense healing support unless I'm healing on the shaman/druid in a BG. )
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1 Human Warrior
0
Mana efficiency changes at 85. This counters your argument outright as has been suggested earlier. If a dps is spamming dispel the entire time they will end up dead and with 0 mana.

As also mentioned earlier, a dispel cd would be detrimental for PvE and thus could never work.

If you are healing and a dps on the opposing team is spam dispelling and you are losing then you have no place in PvP.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
6500
You didn't mention paladins! All of a paladins utility is dispelable. Hand spells are dispellable, 2 HPS cds, even our shield wall is dispellable.

Edit: Nobody corrected me miraculously but I forgot censure wasn't dispellable so I removed my trash debuff comment!
Edited by Darlah on 12/4/2010 12:31 PM PST
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85 Tauren Priest
5875
How would a mana-reduction for dispel in the healing trees help the situation? It's not that dispels are too expensive for healers. It's that DPS counters can spam dispels without much consequence. That's the true problem I was trying to fix.

You said you were concerned that increasing the cost to DPS specs would affect healers who also have access to those same dispels.

By adding on a short CD to offensive dispels, that would curve the dispel spam problem. We've both agreed that mana simply isn't an issue to DPS. Their rotation provides that, so upping the cost, and thus adding on a healer's talent option, would be pointless. :(

No, I did not agree that mana isn't an issue to DPS. I asked you earlier whether you felt dispels were too cheap for DPS classes/specs, or if you thought it impossible to make DPSers care about mana. If you feel it's the latter, I would offer that just as spell costs work in finite amounts, so do their regen mechanics, and there's a cost that would make an Enhancement Shaman think twice about pressing Purge, whether that's 600 or 6,000. Now, whether we actually need to make Shamans think harder about Purging is probably the discussion we should be having. But the point is that increased spell costs, even for DPS specs, still have consequences.

Why do you think dispels will be excessively punitive in Cata PvP?
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85 Goblin Priest
3915
Give all offensive dispels a short (3 - 5 sec) CD.


Please do, anyone who does not see the problem since dispel protection and trash buffs have been removed is blind. I dont care how much more mana its supposed to cost at 85, it is out of control.
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95 Blood Elf Paladin
10465
massively increase cost of dispel

prioritize stronger buffs to be dispelled first


turns decision into 'ok, they popped a major offensive cooldown. which is more efficient, healing through the increased damage or dispelling the buff'

or 'ok, they popped a major defensive cooldown. do i have the mana to spare to continue the pressure?'
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77 Blood Elf Priest
1620
Defensive dispel should have no CD.

Offensive dispels should.
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90 Human Paladin
10460
Purge and Dispel Magic should only clear 1 buff as well, not 2.
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80 Goblin Priest
860
You guys sure are QQing a lot at 80 about things that are balanced around 85.

Just wait two more days...
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80 Blood Elf Mage
2750
But don't touch Spellsteal at all.
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