Gouge EDIT: (please ignore this, I was wrong)

79 Human Rogue
1580
Please ignore this post, I was wrong.


I know that of all the things to worry about, this is pretty low on the list, but it's something that's bothered me anyway.

Unless you're a Combat Rogue, Gouge has an incredibly thin window of benefit. 4 seconds of CC is pretty low considering you're spending 45 energy for it. It's not enough time to exit combat and re-stealth, it's not enough time to regenerate the energy you used to execute the ability (unless you've got an energy regen bonus from talents or haste), and it's not needed for positioning unless you're doing 1v1 PvE. At best, Gouge can be used as an interrupt if your Kick is on CD, or a last-resort CC if everything else is on CD except Sprint and you need to GTFO.

Before the Cataclysm trees, it used to be that anyone could spec into Improved Gouge if they wanted to. The talents were the only thing that made it into viable CC. Because the Improved Gouge talent is T3 in the Combat tree though, only Combat Rogues can improve an otherwise mediocre ability into usefulness.

I propose that the baseline Gouge ability has its energy cost lowered to 15, or that its base stun time is increased to 6 seconds. The Combat talent would have to be re-worked a bit to make it an attractive option in the tree, but that's a small price to pay for making a baseline Rogue ability more than "meh." If that makes the ability or the Rogue class overpowered, then the ability needs to be re-thought or done away with. Even if it has a small bit of use, the objective is for all of a class's abilities to be fun and/or useful. Currently, Gouge is neither.

Edited by Buguba on 12/3/2010 7:49 PM PST
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85 Human Warlock
2280
It's good as is, a properly timed gouge on a healer can win matches.

Properly using gouge in arena is one of the things that separate the men from the boys in the rogue world. (I'm not saying it's incredibly usefull, but situationally it can be significant)
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Properly using gouge in arena is one of the things that separate the men from the boys in the rogue world.
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79 Human Rogue
1580
Properly using gouge in arena is one of the things that separate the men from the boys in the rogue world. (I'm not saying it's incredibly usefull, but situationally it can be significant)

I totally agree that it's useful in specific situations, but all those situations involve using it as a poor-man's interrupt if your Kick on CD. I'm not saying that's a terrible or underpowered thing, but my point is that it would be nice if Gouge had a use OUTSIDE of Arena matches where a healer is desperately casting a game-changing heal.

You're obviously new to this. What you are asking for would be ridiculously OP. 15 energy??

The Improved Gouge talent in the Combat tree increases the Stun time to 6 seconds AND reduces its energy cost to 15. What I'm asking is that the baseline Gouge get *one* of those aspects so that it's useful outside of the Combat tree and the scenario I described above.

Personally I wouldn't mind a re-work of the ability entirely, since it seems so precarious as it is, but I doubt that's going to happen so...

Edited by Buguba on 12/3/2010 7:04 PM PST
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The Improved Gouge talent in the Combat tree increases the Stun time to 6 seconds AND reduces its energy cost to 15. What I'm asking is that the baseline Gouge get *one* of those aspects so that it's useful outside of the Combat tree and the scenario I described above.

Problem there is that I believe 6 is enough to leave combat and re-stealth. I could be wrong, but 6s is an awfully long time ---> It could be different in Cata time wise, but yea.
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85 Undead Rogue
7760
I'm getting sick of rogues complaining about perfectly fine abilities and mechanics.

Gouge is amazing as-is and essential to any level of competitive play. Leave it alone.
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79 Human Rogue
1580
Gouge is amazing as-is and essential to any level of competitive play. Leave it alone.


When I say it's not useful or has a "limited window of benefit," I'm talking about any and all scenarios beyond the one where it's used as a poor-man's interrupt in the Arena.

Understanding that, I think I offered the wrong kind of buff, since everyone feels that any buffs to the baseline ability (NOT THE ONE ALREADY OFFERED BY COMBAT) is over the top. Is there any way that it could be re-worked to be useful in BOTH the Arena and in scenarios outside of when your Kick is on CD? Gouge just seems like a very dead-in-the-water ability compared to others. Blizzard obviously wanted it to be some form of CC since that what it's described as doing, but everyone uses it instead as a caster interrupter (since it's so poor at true CC).

I guess what I'm asking is if Gouge can act like the true CC it's supposed to be or just be an interrupt move that everyone uses it as. As a half-and-half ability, it's clunky and convoluted.
Edited by Buguba on 12/3/2010 7:23 PM PST
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85 Undead Rogue
7760
Gouge is amazing as-is and essential to any level of competitive play. Leave it alone.


When I say it's not useful or has a "limited window of benefit," I'm talking about any and all scenarios beyond the one where it's used as a poor-man's interrupt in the Arena.


I use it in duels, BGs, and world PvP. Need extra time to get energy and health via Recuperate? Gouge. Waiting on a cooldown or help from allies? Gouge. Your opponent just blew a DPS cooldown? Gouge. Need to make your next Kidney Shot unavoidable? Gouge. About to get rooted or your opponent is sprinting away? Gouge. Just want to piss someone off after you've already CCed them for 30 seconds? Gouge.

It can, and should, also be used as an interrupt outside of arena if needed. Not sure where you're getting the idea that it can only be used effectively in arena.
Edited by Kephket on 12/3/2010 7:57 PM PST
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79 Human Rogue
1580
I use it in duels, BGs, and world PvP. Need extra time to get energy and health via Recuperate? Gouge. Waiting on a cooldown or help from allies? Gouge. Your opponent just blew a DPS cooldown? Gouge. Need your next Kidney Shot unable to be avoided? Gouge. About to get rooted or your opponent is sprinting away? Gouge. Just want to piss someone off after you've already CCed them for 30 seconds? Gouge.



It can, and should, also be used as an interrupt outside of arena if needed. Not sure where you're getting the idea that it can only be used in arena.

I guess I kept saying "the Arena" because it's an area where it's a consistent fact that even the most marginal interrupt or stun can be the difference between winning and losing between equal teams. You're right though that this applies to really any PvP situation and not ones exclusively in the Arena.

I didn't know that Gouge made Kidney Shot unavoidable though, and I didn't consider that the energy regeneration in the best of gear would outweigh the marginal energy loss when using Gouge as a delaying tactic (assuming no energy regeneration bonus). I also didn't consider its usefulness in preventing DPS cooldowns (which are usually very short).

I agree with you guys then, Gouge is fine. Thanks for the information. :)

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85 Undead Rogue
7760
I agree with you guys then, Gouge is fine. Thanks for the information. :)


Happy to be of service. Most rogues refuse to think outside the box when complaining about something.
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85 Worgen Druid
2815
I "liked" this post. A rogue that was actually willing to listen when someone said the positives.
Wish more players would do that.
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