Instant cast reliance is not good for PvP

I see Cata moving us toward a very bad direction.

You were concerned about haste(I guess) and reacted by nerfing cast times heavily.
But now...we have a ton of hard hitting instants around.
And then it seems like you balanced many specs around these hard hitting instants to the point where cast times will be a much smaller part of PvP @ 85.

I've played Mage a fair amount since 4.0+ and it really is just lower quality game play period to spam instants so much as a ranged class. It's also stupid how strong certain specs and specific abilities are against cast time spells now, to the point where you might as well not cast against them at all.

Feral vs Frost duel is one obvious example, and I'm not picking on feral specifically or saying duels matter - this is how it will be like vs. many comps in arena as well.
At no point in a duel with a feral should I bother attempting to cast a spell until his trinket is on CD and I have him deep frozen. Feral mobility and control simply does not allow for spell casting, for a mage anyway. Warriors will be like this vs. many casters as well, and probably subtlety rogues.

I'm not calling melee overpowered, I'm saying both melee and casters have been taken in a bad direction. You can't react to instants in the same way you can casts, and that's a big part of what made casters unique and fun. You have powerful spells but your opponent can react to stop them. Now, we have powerful instants, and there's no real stopping them, with casters vs. melee you are often both just spamming instant damage into eachother.

It just feels to me like PvP has devolved. I know not every spec has a spell comparable to IL but TBH I don't see how you're going to be able to play a caster that still does rely on getting medium-long cast time spells off in this environment.
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80 Gnome Warrior
2440
The problem is twhat i call the second arm's race.

Basically they balanced melee mobility around frost mages. Then they balanced their intterupting ability around healers. And then they wonder why anyone who is not a frost mage or a healer is completely unable to use casted spells in Pv without winning at the juke-lottery.
Edited by Pokeball on 12/2/2010 9:44 PM PST
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85 Human Paladin
10935
So you pick quite possibly the best melee counter for mages for your example? Ferals being able to shift out of snares is huge. Against any other melee, casts are much easier to get off since they are slowed/rooted FAR more often than a feral druid.
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85 Undead Mage
4650
ah people are already derailing the thread.

did you not play a mage in TBC buglamp? you could win majority of your arena matches by using instants only.
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I did say feral vs. mage was an obvious example, not every caster has frost's kiting tools however, and rogue and warrior mobility and caster control has gone up.

My post in this AJ thread-
http://www.arenajunkies.com/showthread.php?t=217264&page=10
partially inspired this thread here.

ah people are already derailing the thread.

did you not play a mage in TBC buglamp? you could win majority of your arena matches by using instants only.

I have only played mage in season 7 -mage/rogue(1900 lol) pretty much exclusively - and 8 - played spriest/mage(2200), shatterplay(~2200), a bit of RMP that I failed miserably @(~2200-2300) because I'm still pretty bad at arena, and moonkin/mage(~2500 MMR) and moonkin/mage/rsham(~2400-2500).
Edited by Buglamp on 12/2/2010 10:08 PM PST
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85 Draenei Paladin
5545
My ret paladin and unhol dk would have a would with you if you saying all melee has massive up time. Again rogue is still op on a caster but not every melee is a rogue.
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85 Draenei Paladin
5545
My ret paladin and unhol dk would have a would with you if you saying all melee has massive up time. Again rogue is still op on a caster but not every melee is a rogue.


If your unholy DK can't maintain uptime, you have some serious issues. That's a class/spec that is virtually impossible for a lone player to peel.


It able slow target and deathgrib but this isnt enough against mage, and unholy hit like a wetnooble. My ele shaman has easy time than both of ret paladin and unholy dk aside form rogue.
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85 Draenei Paladin
5545


Desecration counters slow.
I blink? You use a ghoul stun.
I blink? You deathgrip.
I'm anywhere outside of desecration, you chains of ice.
I try to cast up close, you mind freeze.
I try to cast from a distance, you strangulate.

The argument that unholy DKs don't do a lot of damage doesn't fly.

You can keep on a mage unlike any other melee class. Even a feral druid can be limited by use of mirror images.


Ghoul Stun is 2 sec and 1 min cd. You can trinklet.
Blink is 15 sec, Deathgrib is 25 sec at best.
You have freeze and Root.
You have deep freeze 5 sec stun at 30 sec cd.
Mind freeze is no more than kick.
And you have icelance and other instant.
There is iceblock.

You giving up huge damage potential for specing unholy rather than frost.
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85 Night Elf Druid
AXE
7495
Before everyone was given a gap closer and an interrupt, casts were viable. Now that every melee class has the option for massive uptime, interruption, OR stuns to pin you, the only option is to spam instants and run.

I'd much rather see ice land nerfed into the ground and some gap closers rolled back. The game was more fun when winning a fight meant outplaying your opponent, not instagibbing them or running in a circle mashing instants.


I second this thought. I gave up trying to cast my basline 2sec "fast cast" when I kept being interrupted/silenced/stunned. It isn't worth being locked out for 5-10 seconds to cast a wrath that does only 150% of my moonfire. Even if they nerfed moonfire's damage, I'd still only cast moonfire because it's safer.
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85 Tauren Druid
6190

Feral vs Frost duel is one obvious example, and I'm not picking on feral specifically or saying duels matter - this is how it will be like vs. many comps in arena as well.
At no point in a duel with a feral should I bother attempting to cast a spell until his trinket is on CD and I have him deep frozen. Feral mobility and control simply does not allow for spell casting, for a mage anyway. Warriors will be like this vs. many casters as well, and probably subtlety rogues.
this was exactly the same pre patch regarding feral.

edit: in a duel that is.
Edited by Cihlardr on 12/3/2010 7:16 AM PST
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^ True, and it was stupid then as it is now. The problem is it's becoming more like that against every other spec I face. Instant spam is just more viable. I feel like I'm playing some kind of bizarre MM hunter on steroids.
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