Instant cast reliance is not good for PvP

Because sub is stronger and most are playing sub.
Sub mobility is way better than mutilate.
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85 Human Death Knight
4025
Because sub is stronger and most are playing sub.
Sub mobility is way better than mutilate.



Yes but it was always better than mutilate. Sub gained nothing and mutilate lost too much. To say rogues have too much mobility is laughable.
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80 Orc Shaman
2450
I don't know about you, but juking interrupts with fake casts/spells from other schools is insanely fun for me on any of my toons.

the fact that my own ui and client is fooled by juking still amazes me. I don't like reliance on instants, which is why i could never play a resto druid.
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79 Tauren Death Knight
950
No offense (and you explained it was just a duel), but your main argument... was in fact... based on a duel with a FERAL DRUID. Mages hardest class of all time to cast against.

Yes, instants are retarded but really... mages are the ONLY caster with an over zealous instant spam...which is...ICEEE LANCEEEE *earth shattering sound*

You know you control the crap out of melee and to an extent... ranged as well. You're the most slippery class and have the ability to spam 10k instants... not exposing your frost tree. You need an CD on ice lance... 6 seconds would be fine.
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Ice Lance on a CD would solve absolutely nothing.

Ice Lance doing less damage would, but they'll have to adjust frost PvE and adjust melee vs. caster balance, as well as dispels, for this to work out right.

There's no easy "just nerf this" solution.

IMHO they need to realize they've quite simply overreacted to the issues haste caused in s8.
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2 Dwarf Hunter
0
Ice Lance on a CD would solve absolutely nothing.

Ice Lance doing less damage would, but they'll have to adjust frost PvE and adjust melee vs. caster balance, as well as dispels, for this to work out right.

There's no easy "just nerf this" solution.

IMHO they need to realize they've quite simply overreacted to the issues haste caused in s8.


I don't really think so. Throughout LK, melee didn't need to be on a target (especially a caster) for very long to put up a considerable amount of pressure. In Cata, melee will NEED that higher uptime (not a huge chunk all at once, but intermittent bouts of relatively high uptime followed by being kited /repeat) to put similar pressure on.

IMO the ranged vs. melee "arms race" is just silly. Most classes have far too many tools to get away from/get to, a target. There need to be fewer counters but the counters need to be more meaningful when used.
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The problem with high uptime for melee -

- Dispels, if melee have uptime without them they become ridiculous with them.

- Casters can't really cast with melee on them. High uptime melee = casters flailing about helplessly while dying and being unable to put out pressure or control. Basically you just have to...spam instants. /yawn

- Caster escapes and survivability vary. If melee have a high uptime on mages other casters are pretty screwed aren't they? And mages quite simply aren't balanced at all for taking damage from melee for more than a short period of time.

Edited by Buglamp on 12/3/2010 8:45 AM PST
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85 Undead Priest
6340
The problem with high uptime for melee -

- Dispels, if melee have uptime without them they become ridiculous with them.

- Casters can't really cast with melee on them. High uptime melee = casters flailing about helplessly while dying and being unable to put out pressure or control. Basically you just have to...spam instants. /yawn

- Caster escapes and survivability vary. If melee have a high uptime on mages other casters are pretty screwed aren't they? And mages quite simply aren't balanced at all for taking damage from melee for more than a short period of time.


you're a mage dude. if you're having problems with melee as frost, it's a player problem. I with your plethora of slows and blink, you're doing it wrong if you're getting trained by melee. How do you think spriests feel with no mobility what so ever? Ice lance needs to be nurfed in damage. A CD would do a lot, look at swd...

Also, pve frost has nothing to do with this. As long as it's semi close to dps, Arcane and Fire should be the front runners and Frost can come in third, being viable for those who like the play style but just not as powerful.
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100 Night Elf Druid
11035
The problem is twhat i call the second arm's race.

Basically they balanced melee mobility around frost mages. Then they balanced their intterupting ability around healers. And then they wonder why anyone who is not a frost mage or a healer is completely unable to use casted spells in Pv without winning at the juke-lottery.


I've been saying this for a long time. Casters that aren't Frost Mages are feeling very frustrated trying to deal with the obscene amount of interrupts, silences, stuns, and gap-closers that most melee classes have.
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You can't put a CD on Ice Lance when FoF stacks to 2 charges. Would make pretty much no sense whatsoever.

PvE frost has something to do with this whether PvPers want it to or not. It's why a lot of changes to frost were made in the first place.

As for having trouble vs. melee, live frost =/= frost in an arena environment @ 85. Melee don't all have dispel bots in BGs, aren't receiving buffs such as HoF, don't have another DPS assisting them, and aren't getting healed through mindless Ice Lance damage, etc.


Edited by Buglamp on 12/3/2010 9:00 AM PST
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85 Undead Priest
6340

As for having trouble vs. melee, live frost =/= frost in an arena environment @ 85. Melee don't all have dispel bots in BGs, aren't receiving buffs such as HoF, don't have another DPS assisting them, and aren't getting healed through mindless Ice Lance damage, etc.


we can agree to COMPLETELY disagree about this then.
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100 Goblin Warlock
17215
The current balance is based on the big picture. It find it humorous that rets complain about mages for example when they suffer from the same crippling dispel weakness and it becomes apparent they are talking about duels or a random fight.

Instants are fine and anyone that complained should have thought about that before they begged for more interupts and better interupts(I'm sorry deathknights but you got the short end of the stick in terms of mind freeze while warriors, rogues, and ferals got much stronger interupts). Haste got nerfed for 85 and on top of that there won't be nearly as much haste on gear so it's a double dip nerf. Triple dip if you add in the cast time added on cyclone, poly, and fear.

The sadder fact is people are still begging for more gap closers when it's typically related to duels and random battlegrounds(or playing with healers who can't tell when you're snared/rooted). The only specs/classes with the potential for 90-100% uptime on snares are rogues, death knights, affliction locks, arcane mages, and feral druids. For affl and arcane it takes wasting a gcd every time a dispel is made while the other 3 get them up in normal rotation(rogues need poison or talent but still). No one is suffering from any sort of huge snare disadvantage in real pvp except against rogues, deathknights, and ferals. Any other snare is avoidable or trivially dispelled and takes more effort to reapply or keep up/has a cooldown.
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I don't understand, you say "current balance is based on the big picture" and then go on to say it's based on duels and PuG BG complaints.
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2 Dwarf Hunter
0
I don't understand, you say "current balance is based on the big picture" and then go on to say it's based on duels and PuG BG complaints.


He frequently doesn't make sense : /
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85 Human Hunter
4300
mages are the ONLY caster with an over zealous instant spam...


Boomkins would like to have tea and biscuits to discuss this statement.
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I'd rather see nerfs to instants with some mobility nerfs to particular melee gap closers after seeing how things pan out w/casters being more about casting again.

And of course, dispels need to be changed or I might not even bother with arena because they're pretty much game breaking right now from my perspective.
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85 Tauren Druid
6190
i missed you purebalance
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85 Night Elf Druid
AXE
7495
mages are the ONLY caster with an over zealous instant spam...


Boomkins would like to have tea and biscuits to discuss this statement.


Drop the cast time on wrath and starfire by 0.5, and you'll see more boomkins casting. Until then...
BOOM! Moonspammed!
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