Instant cast reliance is not good for PvP

I think some people are forgetting rogues cannot shadowstep while rooted.


You have cloak of shadow, and vanish and you have stealth.
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85 Undead Mage
4650
Put a cooldown on icelance so mage actually bother casting again. It is not like mage need it even compare to other caster. It is simply too good.


you have no idea about the mage class. dont suggest fixes when you have no idea what you are talking about or what the true problem actually is behind ice lance spam.
Edited by Plurals on 12/3/2010 1:51 PM PST
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85 Undead Mage
4650
Ring of Frost and Heroic Leap will fix it.

Seriously though... couldn't they come up with something else for mages and warriors?


RoF should be taken off of coldsnap. problem solved.
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85 Undead Priest
6340

actually it was a general statement about instants in pvp and he used feral vs frost which is a bad example because we just used ice lance anyways vs them since TBC.

the only way frost is going to be nerfed is through FoF generation and roots (probably imp CoC and imp freeze)


A general statement about instants in pvp huh. No other class is abusing them on the absurd level of mages, so it's not a "general" problem.
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85 Undead Priest
6340
We hate ice lance spam just as much as you do, but in an environment where casting becomes too difficult or risky, it's all we have to fall back on.


I think that is sorta Buglamp's point. What do other casters without your kiting options and mitigation do? Different classes are different, sure - but a melee beating your face in is a universal caster experience, and right now frost offers mitigation and escape better than anyone else in addition to the option to spam dangerous instants.


buglamps point is that there are too many instants in the game (mages) and he wants casters to be able to control melee even better (lolmages) because they have more gap closers and interrupts now.

he wants to control melee better so he can free cast instead of instant spam. which mages don't need. they just need ice lance nurfed.

*and mage armor magical cc reduction /wink *
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100 Night Elf Druid
10890
We hate ice lance spam just as much as you do, but in an environment where casting becomes too difficult or risky, it's all we have to fall back on.


I think that is sorta Buglamp's point. What do other casters without your kiting options and mitigation do? Different classes are different, sure - but a melee beating your face in is a universal caster experience, and right now frost offers mitigation and escape better than anyone else in addition to the option to spam dangerous instants.


Well, as someone pointed out above, Moonkins use Moonfire spam... and hope for a Shooting Stars proc. The reason we suffered so much in all of the past expansion is because we didn't have any instants that did anything meaningful.

I certainly didn't want to turn into a Moonfire-spamming idiot, but Blizzard has not given us many better options.


I don't think the OP is saying instants need to be nerfed.... he's saying that using casted spells is not viable enough due to the fact that the counters are too many and too powerful.
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actually it was a general statement about instants in pvp and he used feral vs frost which is a bad example because we just used ice lance anyways vs them since TBC.


The point I was trying to make with that, was that melee vs. caster in general is moving towards the kind of game play that Feral vs. Frost Mage exemplifies, which IMO is not good game play.


I don't think the OP is saying instants need to be nerfed.... he's saying that using casted spells is not viable enough due to the fact that the counters are too many and too powerful.


I am saying some instants should be nerfed, but that for caster instants to be weaker, melee gap closers/interrupts/up time may need some adjustments to allow casters to cast if their instants are going to be weaker.

Melee should need to make use of their various interrupts and anti-casting/gap closing abilities, and casters should be able to utilize their tools to create space for casting and actually be able to get casts off. As opposed to some melee having so many abilities to counter casting that most casters barely bother to cast and those abilities are just sitting there being overkill against any caster that does have to cast.
Edited by Buglamp on 12/3/2010 2:48 PM PST
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85 Undead Mage
4650
i think casters already have enough tools in group play for self peels with teammates. all melee pretty much need an interrupt/gap closers because everyone would just bring melee that brought that stuff .rogues and warriors being better to bring over any melee which excludes s5 shadowcomp or whatever nerds call it.

spriests have imp fade, disperse, and fear for self peels which is enough for 1 or 2 competent teammates who can peel so you are fine.

ele shamans have knockback, earthbind root that doesnt share dr with itself, at 85 imp ghostwolf, and frost shock (one could argue that it should freeze for 2 seconds like enh shamans). those are pretty good in use with other competent teammates.

moonkins now have instant root and typhoon. travel form for kiting. those seem good enough if you know how to use travel form properly and shifting for roots with teammate peels.

frostmage. obvious since you all whine so much about it.

hunters have scatter, conc shot, entrapment, frost trap, pet use (roots and intimidation). need traps fixed and a buff to masters call of some sort. so a couple more buffs and they would be fine in group play.

locks have port, spammable fear (which a lot of locks dont understand how effective simply spamming it to dr can do because i see the good locks just fear spam and the bad locks not use it as much because they feel it is useless),shadow fury for destro, pet stun for demo/hand of guldan.the slow when fear breaks, shadowflame snare, CoEx for affliction.. they have other more tanky talents that other casters dont have. I don't know i never really see locks have problems in group play when they have teammates who peel for them. they always seem effective in pvp.

now some of these specs don't have enough self peels for 1v1, but in team play they mostly seem fine. if you really what to know whats bad vs melee, go play a disc priest and then come back and whine about your spec.
Edited by Plurals on 12/3/2010 5:21 PM PST
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Most caster self peels are dispellable, dispels got a huge buff and melee are, correct me if I'm wrong, getting more new gap closers and/or control than casters are getting new escapes and tools to create casting time. I see dispels as a much bigger problem for casters than melee and that's a big part of the problem IMO.
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85 Undead Mage
4650
Most caster self peels are dispellable, dispels got a huge buff and melee are, correct me if I'm wrong, getting more new gap closers and/or control than casters are getting new escapes and tools to create casting time. I see dispels as a much bigger problem for casters than melee and that's a big part of the problem IMO.


have melee on one caster be peels by teammate or healer, while the person and or their other teammate CC the healer. have partner and you attack healer while all 2 or 3 or more of your teammates CC melee off of a caster. you would use stuns on the healer and try to do enough damage so they have to heal or fall behind on healing. that is how the cata arena videos seem.
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Its going to be like the OP s5(I believe) SV hunters pre-Explosive shot nerf. Stupid damage while playing the kiting game all day.















SPOLIER: It doesn't work.
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54 Draenei Paladin
720
Totally agreed. Instant reliance is totally boring and bad, the woltk haste playstle is way better than this one that relies on ice lance or other instants spamming. Mages are forced to spam ice lance now or they lose
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100 Goblin Warlock
17100
Knockback on succy is laughable fyi. It moves you about 4 yards and requires a targetting reticule or whatever you call it. Works for water ele, works for shadowfury, but for a knockback with no daze or slow it's not so good. Much less locks won't be using succy really anymore in pvp. Honestly the imp is somewhat more viable now but still pales compared to the felhunter even with it missing def dispel.
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12/04/2010 8:01 AMPosted by Primuz
12/03/2010 5:33 PMPosted by Buglamp
Most caster self peels are dispellable, dispels got a huge buff and melee are, correct me if I'm wrong, getting more new gap closers and/or control than casters are getting new escapes and tools to create casting time. I see dispels as a much bigger problem for casters than melee and that's a big part of the problem IMO.


You are wrong...

Ret gained a interrupt and a gap closer but you would be hardpressed to arguet that they didn't need it.

Warriors got another gap closer...

Druids got a instant root...


The two strongest mobility classes got new gap closers, and Ret needed pvp help. So melee in general didn't see sweeping mobility or gap closing increases.

On a side note...

Mages gained permanent Water Elemental i.e. Freeze every 25secs
Mages gained 8sec cooldown root via Cone of Cold
Mages gained Ring Of Frost
Boomkins got instant root
Warlocks gained a Knockback on Succubus


Mages also lost Frostbite and rank 1 Frostbolt, though I'd agree they gained control overall. But I think Warriors gained more.

I'm still not seeing how casters in general really kept up with melee in terms of mobility other than stronger instant damage, especially if you also consider buffed dispels which are stronger for obvious reasons vs. casters than most melee.

And when I say "melee are getting more gap closers and/or control..." I don't mean every single melee got more or that every melee is too mobile, I realize that some actually needed more - but Warriors really didn't IMO and Feral probably didn't either. I'd say Mages didn't need more control either, but I'm not actually entirely sure that's fair to say because of the ridiculous dispel system which may mean we essentially have less control in Cata than WotLK.
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