2h Frost doing more dps in unholy presence?

85 Undead Death Knight
4000
This can't be intended. 2 Handed Frost in general is just messed up right now.


- Because I'm getting a lot of runic power from the talent "might of the frozen wastes" (auto attacks 45% chance for 10 more runic power) i get more frost strikes

- I get more frost strikes directly leads to getting more runic empowerment procs. (Gives me free runes that are fully depleted on a 45% chance per frost strike)

- And since Unholy Presence gives me 15% more attack speed i gain more runic power from might of the frozen wastes.

- Unholy Presence also reduces my Global Cool Downs to 1.0 instead of 1.5 (means i do more frost strikes quickly, which means faster runic empowerment procs)

- Unholy Presence also gives my runes a faster recharge anyways

Basically it translates to more dps in an off-spec presence. Might of the Frozen Wastes should not force you into unholy presence. Unless the reason for frosts talent "Improved Frost Presence" is to just carry it over into unholy.

Might of the Frozen Wastes should do 1 or 2 things for us to stay in frost presence.

1). Allow Frost to use 2 rune forges on a two-handed weapon.
and if this isn't enough of a dps increase to close the gap significantly
2). Your Obliterates having a chance to reduce the cool-down on Pillar of Frost by whatever seconds

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100 Draenei Shaman
5290
2H frost is forced to use unholy presence because the spec is short on GCDs in frost presence due to greatly increased runic power generation from MoTFW. That is the only reason. If 2H frost had free GCDs in frost presence, we would use it.

All your other points are basically valid (unholy presence is 10% haste and runic recharge), but they are overridden by the extremely powerful overall damage multiplier of frost presence.

Note that 2H frost is 100% GCD locked in frost presence at level 85 with much lower haste as well.
Edited by Slant on 12/2/2010 10:24 PM PST
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85 Undead Death Knight
4000


All your other points are perfectly valid, but they are overridden by the extremely powerful overall damage multiplier of frost presence.

.


If it was so extremely powerful then why does it produce less dps (rhetorical)? Even in pvp it's better to take Unholy Presence than it is frost due to the GCD.

Frost presence is just bad. That's also part of the problem. Or Unholy presence too good? How in the world can you tell if one presence is just bad or one is too good in this situation?



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85 Blood Elf Death Knight
5390
So theres one variation of frost that appeals more to the frenetic 1gcd playstyle people, and another variation that appeals more to the slower playstyle.

Not seeing a problem here. Just because the tree is entitled "frost" doesn't mean it should revolve around frost presence.
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85 Troll Druid
7645
Are you talking level 80 or level 85? If its level 80, take off like 2/3 your haste/crit gear (say like 5-10% haste and 30% crit? I think, maybe even less crit but I don't remember if any of your mechanics are based off crit) and then still see if you're having the same problem.

Balance is all screwy at 80 due to everyone being overgeared and everything being balanced for 85.
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85 Undead Death Knight
4000
Well apparently it made sense for Unholy and Frost to DPS in Blood Presence for practically all of WotLK.


Each Tree is supposed to utilize its own presence. That much is obvious.
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90 Human Death Knight
18260
But you can run faster. Why give that up?
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85 Troll Priest
3245
Oddly, at 85 when I changed my premie DK's gear away from haste and to mastery, I didn't often find myself w/ excessive resources in FP w/ a frost 2her spec (although it was tight), and it netted a larger dps increase over the haste + UP tests I ran before changing. Would have liked to have played it more to make sure it wasn't just an awry ~10min test, of course, but never got around to it before beta closed :/

The gcd capping in such a setup was more rng, but possibly not the expected dps hit since resource overflow was irregular w/ low haste, and even worst case (overflowing on RP when OB was available) isn't too bad a scenario since KM-less FS is low on Frost 2her's priority list as is. Also considering more frequent FS chaining in UH pres can bleed KM procs away from OB, some dps loss from FS could be masked by gains in OB. Just theory about what I observed though, it could all have been an rng fluke.
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85 Orc Death Knight
3865
omg you mean a DK spec DOESN'T use the presence it's spec is named after?!?!?! Oh snap. I wonder what presence all three specs used for the last two years.

Of course 2h Frost is better in UH presence. It's supposed to use UH presence.
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85 Blood Elf Mage
13125
I don't think this is really a problem, it actually lends itself a small difference in playstyle difference between dual wield and 2hand frost (although it seems like it would make more sense to have dual wield the spec with the fast gcd).
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85 Orc Death Knight
3865
Well apparently it made sense for Unholy and Frost to DPS in Blood Presence for practically all of WotLK.


Each Tree is supposed to utilize its own presence. That much is obvious.


That's not true. For a long time in beta Frost Pres was the only way to dps. They were only really changed because tons of people cried that new players wouldn't understand which was for which.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
9540
When I was running around at 85 on my Frostie, I gave up Unholy Pres., because I was doing more damage in Frost Pres. as 2H Frost. I ran a lot of tests in real world fights and it just didn't seem worth it to be in Unholy Pres. However, there are some fights where losing a little damage, but gaining some mobility is a good thing. The drop from one to the next isn't all that large, but it was enough that if I was going for straight up damage, then Frost Pres. was definitely the way to go.

One other thing I noticed, was that in Unholy Pres., I was spending way more time waiting on runic power or runes to refresh. I felt like Frost Pres. had a more even flow.


-EDarkness
Edited by Desi on 12/3/2010 2:25 AM PST
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85 Worgen Death Knight
5125
Well apparently it made sense for Unholy and Frost to DPS in Blood Presence for practically all of WotLK.


Each Tree is supposed to utilize its own presence. That much is obvious.


Says who? Back in S6, frost played in UP. For a while, frost also PvEd in UP. It would make sense to be that way, but there's nothing written in stone.
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100 Troll Mage
16980
So theres one variation of frost that appeals more to the frenetic 1gcd playstyle people, and another variation that appeals more to the slower playstyle.

Not seeing a problem here. Just because the tree is entitled "frost" doesn't mean it should revolve around frost presence.

I think the trap that newer players would fall into would be the expectation that the frantic 1 second GCD playstyle would go to the spec that naturally swings a lot faster due to dual-wielding, while the slower presence would fit the one that swings slower weapons. It's not that it's wrong, but just comes off as weird if someone doesn't know the math behind it and is told the batteries go in backward, so to speak.
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85 Worgen Death Knight
3250
About a year ago I found a build that used frost as a DW dps build. Ever since then I've been using frost as my dps spec waaaay before blizz announced the big DK changeover. The build used UP for it's faster GCD. Even then I allways topped the damage meters by a very nice margin.
The point is DK's have allways been able to be a very flexible class. I've been seeing posts where DK's are going into pvp using blood spec for increased survivability. If it works, use it.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
13225
Well apparently it made sense for Unholy and Frost to DPS in Blood Presence for practically all of WotLK.


omg you mean a DK spec DOESN'T use the presence it's spec is named after?!?!?! Oh snap. I wonder what presence all three specs used for the last two years.


Says who? Back in S6, frost played in UP. For a while, frost also PvEd in UP. It would make sense to be that way, but there's nothing written in stone.


This isn't Wrath of the Lich King. Wrath of the Lich King is over. This is Catacylsm. Its a whole new ballgame. Just because something is true at 80 doesn't mean it should be true at 85. I mean I can name 100s of things at were true at 70 or 60 that lost value the next expansion.

If a tree spends points on Improved Frost Presence then it makes sense for it to actually utilize the Presence, right? Because 4% Runic Power Generation is negligible. Its 1 extra Frost Strike every 800 Runic Power. On the other hand, that 15% damage increase would close the current gap between DW Frost/2H Unholy and 2H Frost. The spec needs that damage increase.

That's not true. For a long time in beta Frost Pres was the only way to dps. They were only really changed because tons of people cried that new players wouldn't understand which was for which.


Which beta? Wrath? In Wrath beta, Frost Presence was always the tanking Presence.

Catacylsm beta? People switched to UP because they added GCD reduction and 2H Frost is GCD locked. Its not about "playstyle" or some other type of stupid reason you want to come up with. Its a numbers game and in the numbers game, Frost Presence loses for 2H Frost because of GCD lock. If they ever un-GCD lock the spec, it will be back in Frost Presence.


About a year ago I found a build that used frost as a DW dps build. Ever since then I've been using frost as my dps spec waaaay before blizz announced the big DK changeover. The build used UP for it's faster GCD. Even then I allways topped the damage meters by a very nice margin.


Sorry to break this to you but Frost became the DW dps tree for DKs in late Summer 2009 so your sudden revelation wasn't exactly new.
Edited by Pennyrush on 12/3/2010 6:12 AM PST
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90 Goblin Death Knight
16590
Working as intended. 2H Frost's defining talent provides additional resources that can only be used effectively in Unholy Presence, and UP further synergizes with it by increasing the number of procs you will receive over a given period.
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100 Draenei Shaman
5290
Working as intended. 2H Frost's defining talent provides additional resources that can only be used effectively in Unholy Presence, and UP further synergizes with it by increasing the number of procs you will receive over a given period.

Your explanation of why 2H frost uses UP is absolutely correct, however your "working as intended" is unsubstantiated. Can you point to the blue post saying so?

Like someone posted earlier in this thread, it's unintuitive for frost spec to not use frost presence in 4.x. I just don't see that as a developer goal. An unintended consequence that they don't see worth fixing, sure, but not a goal.
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85 Draenei Shaman
9805
Well apparently it made sense for Unholy and Frost to DPS in Blood Presence for practically all of WotLK.


That's because in Wrath every tree was supposed to be dual-function. But Cata changed the trees to do 1 thing, so it makes sense that each presence compliments that 1 thing in a specific way.
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