Prot pally help needed

90 Tauren Paladin
Ark
9550
Hey there.

I'm just looking for some general tips to help me stay alive now that I'm going into heroics. I get hit so hard for some reason. I'm prioritizing EF up 100% of the time even if I use with 4 stacks of BoG, making sure DP is used on CD when I have the boss. I'm not sure what more I can do
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100 Human Paladin
6880
SotR. Anticipate high dmg periods and pop CD's. Same as norm + more mechanics
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
18550
Can't really help you without logs, and I don't see any from your guild.
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90 Draenei Paladin
12740
I think we need to know more about what you ARE doing, so we can tell you where you're going wrong.

How often do you use Divine Protection?
Have you considered using Divine Purpose talent instead of Holy Avenger?
Do you use any macros for your main attacks?
Why Execution Sentence? (I prefer Holy Prism, but a lot of others prefer Light's Hammer... I have yet to see a prot pally besides you who has neither of those 2).
I question your 2 major glyphs... Divine Protection is fine, but the other two... how about Alabaster Shield? There's a lot of personal preference built in to glyphs these days, but yeah... focused shield is an odd one.

Your mastery seems low for your gear level... I could be wrong, though.
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100 Dwarf Paladin
16590
Focused shield is our highest single target dps increase glyph, Hooves.
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90 Draenei Paladin
12740
03/19/2014 08:32 AMPosted by Shins
Focused shield is our highest single target dps increase glyph, Hooves.


Point taken... it was a sort of aside, though... :) he was asking about his mitigation, though... so I probably shouldn't have brought it up.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
16050
Those trinkets aren't helping either.
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100 Human Paladin
11420
First thing, keep working on your 4 piece tier. Even if you have to drop normal bits for flex bits.
Keep on with your cloak quest /grind.
focused shield is very situation, I'm assuming you don't use it all the time eh?

I use a weakaura to track (amongst other things) my SotR, if you're interested in my weakauras sting, I can link it for you,
The game becomes to get as much up time on it as possible. your priority looks something like this.

keep sotr up as much as humanly possible
manage cooldowns, and don't just save them for "oh crap" moments, EF works pretty good for those. however, don't just use DP on cooldown all the time, figure out the boss mechanics and use it at the times that big damage is incoming.
manage EF, not just at full bastion of glory, it's burst heal will save your hide even at low stacks of bastion.

I much prefer divine purpose over. With really good management of your holy power generation plus DP and 4 piece bonus you can get 80-90% up time on SoTR, HA will give you 100% uptime but that's not a very big gain at that point. DP really helps keep your SoTR up and helps get you to 5 stacks of bastion all the quicker.
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90 Human Paladin
8590
03/19/2014 08:43 AMPosted by Monzaligar

I much prefer divine purpose over. With really good management of your holy power generation plus DP and 4 piece bonus you can get 80-90% up time on SoTR, HA will give you 100% uptime but that's not a very big gain at that point. DP really helps keep your SoTR up and helps get you to 5 stacks of bastion all the quicker.


I think your numbers are a bit off. 80-90% is in the zone and 100% isn't possible yet.

Weakauras is a must for myself and I use Skada to quickly check uptimes. WA helps me keep track of EF too. It even tells me how much my next EF will be and the loss if I use it early.

We really do need logs to help or specific fights
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100 Human Paladin
15410
03/19/2014 08:43 AMPosted by Monzaligar
With really good management of your holy power generation plus DP and 4 piece bonus you can get 80-90% up time on SoTR, HA will give you 100% uptime but that's not a very big gain at that point.


Uptime over how long ? 45 seconds after pull with either a good string of DP procs or Holy Avenger with Timewarp ? I think you're grossly overestimating the uptime you can reach on Shield of the Righteous.
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100 Human Paladin
6070
It's normal we are squishier than other tanks, just have to learn to live with it
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100 Human Paladin
15410
03/19/2014 08:10 PMPosted by Swiifty
It's normal we are squishier than other tanks, just have to learn to live with it


Are you going to stop trolling threads with that nonsense ?
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90 Human Paladin
8590
03/19/2014 08:10 PMPosted by Swiifty
It's normal we are squishier than other tanks, just have to learn to live with it


Speak for yourself on that 8<P
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100 Human Paladin
15410
03/19/2014 08:10 PMPosted by Swiifty
It's normal we are squishier than other tanks, just have to learn to live with it


Speak for yourself on that 8<P


Yep, guy doesn't know to use DP or Rook's or other cooldowns for a first application of Corrosive Blast, blames the class.

What would he have done to tank Oondasta back when it was current ? All we had was cycling cooldowns, we didn't even have the current Unbreakable spirit either! Had to cycle those cooldowns properly or splat.

That fight seperated the Real Paladins from the "ZOMG macro SotR to CS!" Paladins (or those Paladins who didn't realise his special was Fire damage, unmitigated by SotR).
Edited by Berith on 3/19/2014 8:39 PM PDT
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100 Human Paladin
11420
So I may have typing out numbers without thinking too hard about it or actually checking a log for uptime. Correct me if my math is wrong. So because I spoke out my but and tossed around numbers like 80-90% I will redeem myself by doing some real math and demonstrating some (hopefully) real numbers.

So, SoTR lasts 3 seconds
CS has a 4.5 sec cooldown
Judge has a 9 second cooldown
Lets say someone has some LFR gear and is rocking 30% haste
CS is now about 3.5 sec
Judge is now about 7 sec
GCD is 1.15 sec

So if you get near perfect use of holy power generators you can get 3 holy power rolling in every 7 seconds for 3 seconds of SoTR or so. Roughly then you could get 3/7 or 42% SoTR coverage.
Now add in divine purpose. DP has a 25% chance to proc every time you spend Holy Power, but a DP proc when used can also proc DP again it actually give you 1 free SoTR for every 3, rather than every 4 as it would seem at first.
Making about 4/7 In this case you now have 57% coverage.
With these numbers you'll average a 5 bastion cast of EF every 35 seconds, or every 23.3 seconds with DP.

Now, if you bump your haste up to the 50% cap you're generating holy power at a rate of 3 every 6 seconds, assuming perfect rotation timing. so 3 Holy Power every 6 seconds. 50% SoTR coverage, add divine purpose and you can increase that to 66.66%
Eternal flame at 5 BoG every 30 seconds or every 20 with DP

So yeah, realistic numbers (assuming my math is correct) means at high levels of haste you should be able to get around over 60% coverage in full SoO normal gear with DP, you'd be lucky to get 50 without it.

However, with HA, when you hit that button you will get 100% coverage until for well over 20 seconds every 2 minutes. HA lasts 18 seconds but your time left on SoTR stacks up quickly when your slamming it every time you generate holy power.
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90 Draenei Paladin
12740
Now you've gone and made me want to put it all in to a spreadsheet, man...

EDIT: Judgment is showing a 6 second CD in the armory... is that tooltip wrong?
Edited by Hoovesnhips on 3/20/2014 12:45 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
14870
Spreadsheet isn't really necessary, SimC will give you your average uptime over however many thousand iterations you have it run. But if you want to napkin it out: First of all, because it takes 3hp to cast SotR and it lasts 3s, all you need to do is calculate hp/s and that'll be your uptime (with a little extra consideration to account for EF usage). And yes, J is a 6s base cd, not 9s.

Regardless of haste levels the rotation looks like this:
CS, J, filler, CS, filler, J, CS, filler, filler, repeat

That's 5hp every 9gcds, not including GC procs or level 45 talent. With 0 haste that's 5hp/13.5s or 37.037% uptime. With 50% haste that's 5hp/9s or 55.555% uptime. Depending on ilevel (mainly strength) you'll have something around the range of 20~30% avoidance (after factoring in level difference), then 30% of those avoided attacks proc, so the procrate is 6~9% every ~1.5% or .04hp/s at the low gear end and .06hp/s at the higher gear end (I need to remember this part next time we get one of those posts where someone claims that dodge/parry is good because it gives us more GC procs, 10% more avoidance only coming out to slightly more than 1hp/min). So we're up to 37.077% at the low end and 55.615% at the high gear end.

For the level 75 talents, let's look at DP first. As Monz said, when you factor in the ability to chain-proc DP actually works out to a 33.333% increase in finisher usage, so ignoring EF that gives us 49.436% at the low end and 74.153% at the higher end. Now factoring in EF depends on if you have the 4p bonus or not. If you don't then you need to subtract 10% from your SotR uptime (still a worthwhile survival gain though). But if you do have the 4p and DP then your uptime will actually go up a little because DP can proc off of the free EFs. This basically works out to adding 3.333% uptime, so the low end becomes 49.769% and the high end becomes 77.486%

HA is relatively simple to calculate as well. HA itself has a 15% uptime, during which it increases our HP generation by 200%, so it averages out to a 30% increase in HP generation, so 55.615% becomes ~72.48% uptime at the high end. Again, if using EF without the 4p then you subtract 10%, with the 4p EF won't affect uptime with HA.

If interested in SW, just to see why it's not preferred by us, first you need to consider that it changes our rotation to J, CS, J, filler, repeat. Generating 5hp in 4gcds This is a 125% increase in hp generation that has a 11.111% uptime without a vial, or ~20.667% uptime with a vial (varying depending on which version). Without a vial SW averages out to a mere 13.889% increase (doesn't affect GC procs), which means it only gives us 63.271% uptime, or 63.331% when we add the .06 from GC. With a vial, SW averages out to a 25.833% increase in hp generation (doesn't apply to GC procs), so the base 55.555% uptime becomes 69.907% uptime, add on the .06 for GC and we get 69.967%. And again, same deal regarding EF as with HA, minus 10% if you don't have the 4p, no effect if you do.

Actually, it seems SW isn't that terrible when you have a vial, when you factor in the increased healing received, it may be better defensively than HA (though the increased healing may not be as useful since you'll have full SotR uptime during it), but DP is still better for survival, and HA is better for dps, so still not much reason to use SW as prot (especially if you don't use vial for every fight).
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90 Human Paladin
8590
I used 47% haste on this Tuesday - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-u1ex0mabpmreh1qx/details/9/?s=8244&e=8667

Go to buffs cast and you will see 73.3% sotr uptime, would have been higher but i was picking up void zones.

Wednesday - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-s8rms0dbzar3qd9x/details/13/?s=6706&e=7306
72.5% sotr uptime / EF 98.5% i was using 50% haste.

This real math thing is very entertaining! Its like i do it in the game and you do it better on paper! Do the math for tanking Rook, i avg 65% sotr uptime on that fight.... I might be doing it wrong?
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
16050
Last i checked the average uptime with 50% haste + other shenanigans is 67%(I might be off but too lazy to re-check)
At the same time you can get higher uptime by getting good RNG when using HA (extra AS procs) or DP (just dp procs) or by abusing t15 - 4p on high dmg intake fights over short period of time (i think 25m H DA burn strats)
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100 Human Paladin
11420
Thanks Pancake.
So it looks like I was going in the right direction but forgot to account for grand crusader and somehow got the wrong CD time for Judgment.

Anyway, the main reason I hear for people using HA, and the reason I used it in T14 was because it's there when you hit a really heavy damage phase. However, few really heavy phases last even close to the duration of your 100% SotR and we have 3 other cooldowns to deal with these phases. In the end, smooth and steady seems much better to me, plus it's so fun when you get three or four procs in a row, I enjoy the feel of DP more than HA.
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