Holy Damage vs. Collossus Smash

90 Blood Elf Warrior
12965
12/04/2010 8:19 AMPosted by Primuz
On a serious note..
Melee Magical Damage ignoring Armor, and 100% Armor Pen are not the same thing. People really need to understand that.
If a melee class has a ability lets say Frost Strike, that does 100% magical damage it has been balanced around the fact that it is magical damage. This is why Frost Strike only does 110% weapon damage.
However Warrriors have attacks that do alot more then 110% weapon damage. So when you add in 100% ArP to their attacks things get crazy..
Basically melee attacks that are magical are already tuned to do lower damage because of that.

I'm not really sure how you've come to the conclusion that warriors aren't balanced around CS. There's no doubt in my mind that blizzard did the final numbers pass [17% nerf] based on performance logs from top tier players -- players that were making the best use of CS as was possible. To assume that warriors aren't balanced around CS is to assume that warriors in beta raids weren't making use of the ability

The PVE numbers I saw towards the end of beta didn't really indicate that warriors were overpowered which says that in the long run, CS balances out.

If the complaint is that warriors apply that armor piercing damage in too short of a time then that's a different issue, but I honestly don't think it'll be as big of a deal as people make it out to be. In comparison to other melee, warriors are more susceptible to CC and have almost no survivability tools on short CD. When it comes down to it, the design of the class centers around doing damage when you take that away (loltankpres DK/feraldruid/paladin) you don't exactly have much left.
Edited by Marliene on 12/4/2010 8:43 AM PST
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90 Orc Shaman
18460
12/04/2010 6:17 AMPosted by Malachi
12/04/2010 6:10 AMPosted by Marliene
Funny, I could've sworn exorcism does anywhere in the ballpark range of 20-35k of unmitigated holy damage and accounts for 20%~ of a paladin's damage breakdown.

Not to mention other holy damage abilities unmitigated by armor:

Seal of truth
Hammer of wrath
GOAK

Yea, paladins are totally getting mitigated by armor by an obscene amount.


exorcism crits for 15k in pvp on targets with no resilience.

seal of truth hits for abysmal amounts, it's not even worth using in PVP.

hammer of wrath hits for like 7k on targets with resilience

GOAK hits for 2k a swing on beta.

Something like 75% of our damage is physical.

In contrast, our biggest nuke, TV, which takes a substantial amount of time to build up, hits for like 5k on targets with any resilience and is pretty much worthless.

You really want to compare all that to a warrior with 100% arpen for 6s multiple times in a pvp battle?


I find that discussions of any sort are better when people stick to facts.

Top Ret Parse for ICC25 Saurfang - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/g9w6gffv6zv5eg7y/sum/damageDone/?s=2032&e=2133#Yaerius

Physical Damage - 51.6%
Holy Damage - 46.3%
Shadow Damage - 2.0%
Fire Damage - 0.1%

51.6% is a lot less then 75%.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
12775
12/04/2010 7:47 AMPosted by Marliene
Unless I'm just awful at math 6 seconds / 20 sec cooldown means it's up 30% of the time? I mean, where the hell did ~46% uptime come from?


I did miscalculate. Its really ~42% uptime. I apologize for any confusion.

The cooldown isn't really 20 seconds. Its 14 (20 -6). You'll have 14 seconds in between applications. That means its 6/14 = ~.42. Actual uptime is 42% without Sudden Death. With Sudden Death, its much higher but more difficult to calculate because it depends on several variables.
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90 Draenei Paladin
17760
In comparison to other melee, warriors are more susceptible to CC and have almost no survivability tools on short CD.


Um, what? Roots I could buy, kind of. But CC?

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=18499

And yeah, your shortest cooldowns require a shield but:
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=23920
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=2565
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85 Blood Elf Warrior
4930
So when the player blocks dodges or parrys my CS what now? Plz dont claim it will never happen.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
12775
12/04/2010 8:20 AMPosted by Primuz

Also Penny Rush is the only other DK in this thread and I don't think he even PvPs seriously.


I haven't arenaed since S1. I don't like some of the aspects of it. But I am looking forward to Rated BGs where those aspects aren't as important (e.g. Group Comp)
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90 Draenei Paladin
17760
Do blocks still prevent melee debuffs from being applied?
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85 Draenei Priest
7295
need more people who have never played beta making wild accusations and crying about things they haven't encountered, it's great for the game environment.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13280
Oh and to that other idiot paladin, warrior are far from Ret Burst when CS is NOT up, its higher with it but it isnt always Up


This is such an absurd notion I can only think you are either intentionally trolling or are a complete imbecile. Ret has a significant build up time to generate any burst, and TV isn't even that effective on anything wearing armor higher than leather. Beyond that we are reliant on heavy RNG from HoL and AoW procs. The latter which won't even be a factor if we are being kited, since they only have a chance to proc off melee swings.

And please don't add to your clueless status by trying to use the tired AW argument. A 20% damage increase that lasts 12 sec on a 2 min CD (which is dispellable) =/= 100% ArP increase for 6 sec on a 20 sec CD (which is not dispellable). Inquisition is also pretty worthless as the only hard hitting attacks it effects are Exorcism (proc based) and HoW (situational w/ wings or below 20% health). Did I mention it is also dispellable?

Look at it this way, if Inquisition was changed to-

Smashes a target for 150% weapon damage plus 120 and infuses you with holy power, causing you to deal 100% of your damage as holy damage for 6 sec (same 20 sec CD)

You would hear endless cries about Paladins being overpowered and how they need to be nerfed to the ground. If you can't make this parallel because you are too biased to see the connection, you are a moron. If this ability isn't nerfed before competitive PvP starts it will pretty much prove the common notion that Warriors and Mages are the darling classes of WoW, and that everyone else should just stfu and accept it.
Edited by Seléné on 12/4/2010 9:00 AM PST
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Paladins are a melee class and should do mostly physical damage. Wrath of the Lich King was a disgrace in that regard since armor penetration should've been a good stat for us. Stop suggesting that Templar's Verdict should do holy damage, it would only be a step back for the class.
Edited by Roflacakid on 12/4/2010 8:55 AM PST
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85 Blood Elf Warrior
4930
.[/quote]

Get more expertise. If I had an attack that did a million damage but only hit 50% of the time, it wouldn't make it any less overpowered.[/quote]

So then since you want the skill nerfed cause warriors hit you too hard and its not the free Hk you are use to anymore, what is your solution to the " problem".

What changes would you make Since you want CS to only do so much?

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90 Blood Elf Warrior
12965
12/04/2010 8:45 AMPosted by Pennyrush
12/04/2010 7:47 AMPosted by Marliene
Unless I'm just awful at math 6 seconds / 20 sec cooldown means it's up 30% of the time? I mean, where the hell did ~46% uptime come from?


I did miscalculate. Its really ~42% uptime. I apologize for any confusion.

The cooldown isn't really 20 seconds. Its 14 (20 -6). You'll have 14 seconds in between applications. That means its 6/14 = ~.42. Actual uptime is 42% without Sudden Death. With Sudden Death, its much higher but more difficult to calculate because it depends on several variables.


In a 20 second time period, what % of the time can you keep the CS debuff up?

In a 60 second time period, what % of the time can you up keep the CS debuff up?

The cooldown is actually 20 seconds. The downtime in between the CS debuff is exactly that... the downtime. Is that difficult to understand? Claiming that the CS debuff somehow counts as uptime during the downtime makes absolutely no sense.

If CS had a cooldown of 12 seconds, then under your quacky math it'd have an uptime of 100%
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85 Blood Elf Warrior
4930
Yet when ret was first made viable what was it like to roll your face on the keyboard and get insta kills? pure skill right?

Now you have to do things? have they made it harder? yes, but that just gets rid of the Fotm players. maybe you dont burn your wings at the start of the fight like baddy plds. maybe you save it for when hes at 75% and then burn it.

What do i know though i play a warrior all i know is that clearly my class dosent get nerfed enough and i cant reflect any Pld skills.

ooooo i would love to be able to reflect HOW make you pay for using it but alas its not to be.

be thankfull they didnt do to you what they did to hunters.
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85 Tauren Paladin
4725
In a 20 second time period, what % of the time can you keep the CS debuff up?
In a 60 second time period, what % of the time can you up keep the CS debuff up?
The cooldown is actually 20 seconds. The downtime in between the CS debuff is exactly that... the downtime. Is that difficult to understand? Claiming that the CS debuff somehow counts as uptime during the downtime makes absolutely no sense.
If CS had a cooldown of 12 seconds, then under your quacky math it'd have an uptime of 100%


Aww, this is embarasssing. Basic math FTW Marliene. Maybe a little more time at the studies and a little less time at WoW, eh?

EDIT: I realize I should be helpful and not just mean. The CD on CS is 20sec, but for 6 of those seconds CS debuff is up. Once he debuff is down you only have 14 more seconds until you can put up the debuff again, thereby giving CS and effective 42% uptime, as 6/14=~.428
Edited by Gloriousmoo on 12/4/2010 9:15 AM PST
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85 Night Elf Warrior
5990
12/04/2010 9:07 AMPosted by Citan
The OP keeps saying that this isn't Ret. versus Warrior but all this just sounds to me as a childish complaint because warriors get Colossus Smash and Paladins don't get anything similar (people have already mentioned this but I will say it again, as this beats down anything you can say, really: warriors depend on 100% physical damage, Paladins don't, so you can't compare both).

If you're complaining about colossus smash, then we have the exact same right to complain about paladins getting to use hammer of wrath while avenging wrath is active.

I totally agree with Pennyrush, it's not Colossus Smash that needs to be changed, it's Sudden Death, and I wouldn't mind if it got removed for good.

Cheers.
I really don't see how CS is a good thing for us at all. I would rather do more damage consistently than see our damage shackled to CS, which is really the case now. All our attacks have been nerfed will remain nerfed just because CS exists, so outside of it being up our chances of killing people are extremely marginal. I'd rather see some way to work in bleed damage or something is more consistent with armor pen, rather than sticking to a burst ability.
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