Holy Damage vs. Collossus Smash

90 Blood Elf Warrior
12965
12/04/2010 8:49 AMPosted by Primuz

I never said they weren't balanced around CS. The post you quoted was simply me stating how useless it is to compare melee magical damage attacks to a warrior attacking a target with 100% armor pen. The two things are not remotely comparable or the same.


Well feel free to clarify exactly what you meant. By saying that two methods of bypassing armor are not the same you're implying that one is balanced around that fact and the other is not. I'm pointing out that the game at 85 was balanced around CS so in fact all the armor piercing abilities of each class were accounted for at 85.


And this is where your post went to the sewers. Warriors are more susceptible to CC then other melee? Rofl Ret would like to have a word with you. I mean you are more susceptible to CC other then fear breaks and immunity on short cooldowns, and the ability to rage out of sap...

Lol yeah you have been the most dominate and powerful melee class in arena for all but one season because you are so weak and fragile.


The point I was trying to make is that pointing out the theoretical damage capabilities of one single move and claiming it is the end all definition of 85 is narrow minded. Considering there's lots of factors to take into account when you look at the viability of each class at 85. If doing tons of upfront is the only thing that defines a win then everybody would just wear straight PVE gear.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
12775
12/04/2010 8:54 AMPosted by Xintaer
need more people who have never played beta making wild accusations and crying about things they haven't encountered, it's great for the game environment.


This is retarded logic fyi.

Most people in Wrath Beta thought DKs were underpowered even with people like myself arguing that they were fine. Guess what happened? Blizzard kept buffing and buffing and buffing. You ended up with S5.

Just because someones in beta doesn't make them more knowledgeable at all.
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85 Human Paladin
11205
12/04/2010 8:45 AMPosted by Rouncer
12/04/2010 6:17 AMPosted by Malachi
Funny, I could've sworn exorcism does anywhere in the ballpark range of 20-35k of unmitigated holy damage and accounts for 20%~ of a paladin's damage breakdown.

Not to mention other holy damage abilities unmitigated by armor:

Seal of truth
Hammer of wrath
GOAK

Yea, paladins are totally getting mitigated by armor by an obscene amount.


exorcism crits for 15k in pvp on targets with no resilience.

seal of truth hits for abysmal amounts, it's not even worth using in PVP.

hammer of wrath hits for like 7k on targets with resilience

GOAK hits for 2k a swing on beta.

Something like 75% of our damage is physical.

In contrast, our biggest nuke, TV, which takes a substantial amount of time to build up, hits for like 5k on targets with any resilience and is pretty much worthless.

You really want to compare all that to a warrior with 100% arpen for 6s multiple times in a pvp battle?


I find that discussions of any sort are better when people stick to facts.

Top Ret Parse for ICC25 Saurfang - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/g9w6gffv6zv5eg7y/sum/damageDone/?s=2032&e=2133#Yaerius

Physical Damage - 51.6%
Holy Damage - 46.3%
Shadow Damage - 2.0%
Fire Damage - 0.1%

51.6% is a lot less then 75%.[/quote]

We're talking about PvP not PvE parses... even than you're most likely talking about a well geared Ret Paladin who is at the haste cap wearing BiS. In PvP we cannot keep SoT stack at 5 all the time and we're not sitting on our target 100% of the time either. So you're entire argument of it "being fine" is crap.

-Art of War is off from Auto attacks
-Mastery is from auto attacks
-Seal of Truth requires auto attacks and once it hits 5 stacks it adds bonus Holy Damage to our attacks.
-Avenging Wrath + Hammer of Wrath requires someone not to dispell/silence/CC us
-Player is at haste cap and unlike PvP ret we don't stack haste we stack resil so SoB talent is completely nulled out and we're not swinging our target every 2.6 seconds with auto attacks.

So looking at parses from a fight where there is zero movement (Saurfang) is laughable.
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85 Human Paladin
11205
12/04/2010 9:14 AMPosted by Marliene
The point I was trying to make is that pointing out the theoretical damage capabilities of one single move and claiming it is the end all definition of 85 is narrow minded. Considering there's lots of factors to take into account when you look at the viability of each class at 85. If doing tons of upfront is the only thing that defines a win then everybody would just wear straight PVE gear.


The funny thing is in Wrath warriors needed to stack Armor Pen but, that was all on PvE gear so warriors tossed on PvE gear along with their PvP set to get some of their needed stat. What CS is bringing is a full PvE geared Warrior in wrath but, wearing full PvP gear that lasts for 6seconds on a 20second CD which resets off of all your attacks with a 6% chance... so yes we can theorycraft about an ability that gives what Warriors had only wearing full PvE gear that isn't even on lengthy CD while still having the best mobility in game.
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85 Blood Elf Death Knight
10300
Lol. I'm not going to say whether colossus smash is a good idea, bad idea, overpowered, or underpowered, but I am going to say there is some seriously made up math in this thread. Debuff uptime is is simple. Time debuff is up divided by total time. No you do not subtract debuff time from total time. Colossus smash at a 20 second cooldown with a 6 second duration is 6/20 =0.3 or 30%.

If you didn't reach this conclusion, I suggest you edit your post before you realize you look like a fool.
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90 Human Paladin
10065
12/04/2010 8:45 AMPosted by Rouncer
12/04/2010 6:17 AMPosted by Malachi
[quote="12199823987"]Funny, I could've sworn exorcism does anywhere in the ballpark range of 20-35k of unmitigated holy damage and accounts for 20%~ of a paladin's damage breakdown.
Not to mention other holy damage abilities unmitigated by armor:
Seal of truth
Hammer of wrath
GOAK
Yea, paladins are totally getting mitigated by armor by an obscene amount.

exorcism crits for 15k in pvp on targets with no resilience.
seal of truth hits for abysmal amounts, it's not even worth using in PVP.
hammer of wrath hits for like 7k on targets with resilience
GOAK hits for 2k a swing on beta.
Something like 75% of our damage is physical.
In contrast, our biggest nuke, TV, which takes a substantial amount of time to build up, hits for like 5k on targets with any resilience and is pretty much worthless.
You really want to compare all that to a warrior with 100% arpen for 6s multiple times in a pvp battle?

I find that discussions of any sort are better when people stick to facts.
Top Ret Parse for ICC25 Saurfang - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/g9w6gffv6zv5eg7y/sum/damageDone/?s=2032&e=2133#Yaerius
Physical Damage - 51.6%
Holy Damage - 46.3%
Shadow Damage - 2.0%
Fire Damage - 0.1%
51.6% is a lot less then 75%.

lvl 80 doesn't mean anything. Exorcism hits harder than TV right now on live.
Edited by Malachi on 12/4/2010 9:37 AM PST
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85 Human Warrior
BiS
8570
I really don't see how CS is a good thing for us at all. I would rather do more damage consistently than see our damage shackled to CS, which is really the case now. All our attacks have been nerfed will remain nerfed just because CS exists, so outside of it being up our chances of killing people are extremely marginal. I'd rather see some way to work in bleed damage or something is more consistent with armor pen, rather than sticking to a burst ability.


I think you're only seeing one side of the glass right now. Let's head back to TBC and Early Wrath were there wasn't a lot of ArP. Does anyone remember the issue with warriors? I do. Too good against people in cloth and leather (Sans frost mages), and laughable vs anyone in plate or Resto Shamans.

If we remove Colossal Smash, we head back to that same situation. Too good against Lower Armor Targets, not good enough against higher armor targets.

Warriors need away to bypass armor, otherwise against higher armor targets, it just becomes a war of attrition, Fights take too long and everyone's bored by them. Something will change with Colossal Smash, but I don't think its going to be the sweeping changes people want since the only place this ability is causing an issue is in PVP.

Edit: WOULD be causing problems, cause the problem hasn't even occurred yet.
Edited by Bladeknight on 12/4/2010 9:43 AM PST
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
7235
12/04/2010 9:00 AMPosted by Sibu
Yet when ret was first made viable what was it like to roll your face on the keyboard and get insta kills? pure skill right?

Now you have to do things? have they made it harder? yes, but that just gets rid of the Fotm players. maybe you dont burn your wings at the start of the fight like baddy plds. maybe you save it for when hes at 75% and then burn it.

What do i know though i play a warrior all i know is that clearly my class dosent get nerfed enough and i cant reflect any Pld skills.

ooooo i would love to be able to reflect HOW make you pay for using it but alas its not to be.

be thankfull they didnt do to you what they did to hunters.


Lol someone is still bitter from being destroyed from pallys 2 years ago.

You should probably learn to play better instead of crying about how your class is weak or another is strong.

Warriors are pvp Gods, and if you cant succeed as one you should probably try something else, or quit.
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85 Gnome Mage
4895
What's making me laugh is that caster damage is already blowing through armor 100% of the time and if you will check the damage breakouts of most melee on Elitest Jerks (aka. DKs, ret, enh, rogues), they are doing around 50% physical damage and 50% magical or nature damage.

Colossal Smash isn't getting nerfed. It's just equalizing the playing field IMO.

If people have a problem with Throw Down, then you should complain about that talent. I don't think people have much right to complain about Colossal Smash - unless you are warrior who doesn't like having your whole rotation depend on one ability on a fairly long cooldown.

Many classes are complaining on these forums about the cost of target switching. How would you like target switching if you had a 20sec cooldown single target ability that a large portion of your damage depended on? Doesn't sound to fun to me.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
12775
12/04/2010 9:33 AMPosted by Saph
Lol. I'm not going to say whether colossus smash is a good idea, bad idea, overpowered, or underpowered, but I am going to say there is some seriously made up math in this thread. Debuff uptime is is simple. Time debuff is up divided by total time. No you do not subtract debuff time from total time. Colossus smash at a 20 second cooldown with a 6 second duration is 6/20 =0.3 or 30%.

If you didn't reach this conclusion, I suggest you edit your post before you realize you look like a fool.


Unless the cooldown doesn't start counting down immediately, this is wrong.

Without Sudden Death, its up for 6 seconds, not up for 14. Hence the "real" cooldown is 14 seconds between applications, not 20. Using this, you get to a 42% uptime.
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90 Blood Elf Warrior
12965

Aww, this is embarasssing. Basic math FTW Marliene. Maybe a little more time at the studies and a little less time at WoW, eh?


For realz


EDIT: I realize I should be helpful and not just mean. The CD on CS is 20sec, but for 6 of those seconds CS debuff is up. Once he debuff is down you only have 14 more seconds until you can put up the debuff again, thereby giving CS and effective 42% uptime, as 6/14=~.428


By that logic if the listed cooldown of CS was 12 seconds, you'd arbitrarily subtract 12-6, then for whatever reason divide the difference by the duration of the debuff (6/6) to end with the "supposed up time". 12-6 ~ 6/6 = 1...100% uptime.

For hilarity's sake, if the duration of the debuff was 15 seconds then under your operations you'd go 20(cd)-15(debuff duration) with 5 seconds until you can cast the debuff again. Then you'd do a 15/5 = 300% uptime. yea bro 300% uptime, it's possible with faux math!

The 14 secs after the debuff has worn off is the time the debuff isn't up during the 20 sec time period of the cooldown, hence downtime and the reverse being the uptime.
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87 Orc Warrior
OP
6475
CS is 30% uptime

6 seconds out of any given 20 seconds it is up

30%
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85 Blood Elf Death Knight
10300
12/04/2010 9:55 AMPosted by Pennyrush
12/04/2010 9:33 AMPosted by Saph
Lol. I'm not going to say whether colossus smash is a good idea, bad idea, overpowered, or underpowered, but I am going to say there is some seriously made up math in this thread. Debuff uptime is is simple. Time debuff is up divided by total time. No you do not subtract debuff time from total time. Colossus smash at a 20 second cooldown with a 6 second duration is 6/20 =0.3 or 30%.

If you didn't reach this conclusion, I suggest you edit your post before you realize you look like a fool.


Unless the cooldown doesn't start counting down immediately, this is wrong.

Without Sudden Death, its up for 6 seconds, not up for 14. Hence the "real" cooldown is 14 seconds between applications, not 20. Using this, you get to a 42% uptime.


I'm not sure if you are trolling or what, the cooldown is 20 seconds.

Marliene explains your logic flaws pretty well.

Debuff uptime is NOT (time debuff is up)/(time debuff isn't up)

Using that model as the duration of the debuff reaches it's cooldown you would approach infinity. You telling me that if collosus smash lasted 20 seconds it would have a 20/0 , aka an impossible number as an uptime?

No, it would have 100% uptime, being 20 seconds duration over 20 seconds cooldown.
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80 Orc Shaman
2450
"In comparison to other melee, warriors are more susceptible to CC and have almost no survivability tools on short CD."


please please please stop saying this its not true and hasn't been true since lvl 60. I don't know why Warriors say this all the time.

10s Immunity to fear sap charm, incaps on a 30 second cooldown
Roots and slows, sure. At 85, warriors become near unkitable with heroric leap
good warriors reflect polly and hex and clone
leaves you with stuns and horrify effects, and stuns heal you.

You aren't even profoundly affected by silences like a paladin or shaman, nor dispels FFS!
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85 Orc Warrior
4400
12/04/2010 6:57 AMPosted by Jpmlöl
Colossus Smash is absurdly overpowered. Looking forward to running TSG!

12/04/2010 10:11 AMPosted by Deepwounds
CS is 30% uptime
6 seconds out of any given 20 seconds it is up
30%

Until your swings proc 2 sudden deaths and you get 18 seconds of uptime, which you can chain with inner rage, followed with Deadly Calm and Throwdown. Warriors WILL be nerfed in s9, there is no doubt about it.

Edit : 2 sudden deaths, 3 (Which has happened on beta) would be 24 seconds of uptime.
Edited by Såje on 12/4/2010 10:25 AM PST
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85 Human Mage
3425
12/04/2010 10:16 AMPosted by Saph
12/04/2010 9:55 AMPosted by Pennyrush
[quote="12199125582"]Lol. I'm not going to say whether colossus smash is a good idea, bad idea, overpowered, or underpowered, but I am going to say there is some seriously made up math in this thread. Debuff uptime is is simple. Time debuff is up divided by total time. No you do not subtract debuff time from total time. Colossus smash at a 20 second cooldown with a 6 second duration is 6/20 =0.3 or 30%.

If you didn't reach this conclusion, I suggest you edit your post before you realize you look like a fool.


Unless the cooldown doesn't start counting down immediately, this is wrong.

Without Sudden Death, its up for 6 seconds, not up for 14. Hence the "real" cooldown is 14 seconds between applications, not 20. Using this, you get to a 42% uptime.


I'm not sure if you are trolling or what, the cooldown is 20 seconds.

Marliene explains your logic flaws pretty well.

Debuff uptime is NOT (time debuff is up)/(time debuff isn't up)

Using that model as the duration of the debuff reaches it's cooldown you would approach infinity. You telling me that if collosus smash lasted 20 seconds it would have a 20/0 , aka an impossible number as an uptime?

No, it would have 100% uptime, being 20 seconds duration over 20 seconds cooldown.[/quote]

Penny is not a troll. He/she is just caught over thinking a rather simple math problem. Penny change the the Cd of CS to 12 sec. What is the uptime then? 50% ofcourse or 6/12.

The answer is real simple. funny enough this sometimes throws people off.


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85 Human Paladin
11205
12/04/2010 10:29 AMPosted by Whyvette
12/04/2010 9:16 AMPosted by Roelath

We're talking about PvP not PvE parses... even than you're most likely talking about a well geared Ret Paladin who is at the haste cap wearing BiS. In PvP we cannot keep SoT stack at 5 all the time and we're not sitting on our target 100% of the time either. So you're entire argument of it "being fine" is crap.


Except this game is designed around PvE with PvP components sprinkled in.

When you mess with Holy Damage, you tread on very dangerous ground. The reason behind this is because you have a very real chance of screwing up Paladin tanking as a consequence of PvP balancing. Or let me say it in this way, from a tanking perspective:

Avenger's Shield--Holy Damage
Hammer of the Righteous--Physical + Holy Damage
Shield of the Righteous--Holy Damage, I think...
Holy Wrath--Holy damage
Consecration--Holy Damage
Crusader Strike--Physical Damage
Judgment--Holy Damage
Seal of Righteousness/Truth--Holy Damage

And Inquisition is going to increase all Holy Damage when you activate it instead of SHoR. Now since you're all crying about how Holy Damage ignores armor, imagine what will happen if your change (Holy now follows armor) would ever really happen? You've effectively nerfed Tankadins into oblivion. This is why it won't happen the way you want.

Instead, we could argue for some kind of holy resistance in gear/spells, but would that really accomplish anything other than people refusing to use it (think shadow resistance and Fear)?


"Hmmm how can we change this Bob without affecting the rest of the Paladin tree?"

"Let me think for a moment Frank... oh I got it! Lets simply adjust Ret only abilities and deep ret talents to give bonuses for Holy damage for Ret without effecting anyone else!"

"Smashing Bob... simply smashing!"

If Blizzard was willing enough to give Exo a 50% buff all around and you're typing about "treading on dangerous ground" for balance issues when Blizzard does it anyways while contradicting itself with CS vs. Holy Damage. It really is quite easy to simply adjust a spec's holy damage by changing their core ability/abilities such as Ret's TV and Mastery while also adjusting their deep talents.
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3 Undead Rogue
0
CS has a 20 second CD with a 6 second uptime and no warrior even has the ability yet and people are already calling for nerfs? LOL

I can see why Blizz would ignore these threads.
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85 Undead Death Knight
4000


You really want to compare all that to a warrior with 100% arpen for 6s multiple times in a pvp battle?



100% ArP is actually not even the same as CS. CS is better than 100% ArP for those 6 seconds. ArP never completely got rid of your armor.
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