"Healing is complex, yay!" -_-;

90 Blood Elf Paladin
9325
This is a RANT. I'm putting that out there to begin with. Got that? R-A-N-T. Hope you enjoy. ^_^


[RANT=begin]
I've been seeing a lot of threads and people PRAISING the more complex Holy Paladin healing system. Going on and on about how happy they are now to heal as Holy...often after saying that they haven't healed as Holy in over a year or even as far back as Vanilla. That is, people that don't play the class. (Just like a lot of Druid players who did NOT play Druids complaining about Tree form who are now SOOO happy to heal since they don't have to be an "ugly tree.")

But see, I hate threads like this.

Do you know why? I stuck with Holy while it was "simple". And I was okay with that.

But I ALSO used all my heals. Yes, when tank healing, I'd spam HL because that's what the encounters forced on us. But if there was an option to throw a HS, a SS, or use a Hand spell to make the encounter go better, I did.

THEY, the one time complainers turned dev disciples now, didn't use anything but HL, but that doesn't mean we didn't have other buttons to push. The ENCOUNTERS often didn't allow us to use other buttons, but that ALSO didn't mean we didn't have other buttons to push.

Then we have idiots saying, "Oh, the spec was boring before, now I have to think!"

The reason you didn't have to think before had nothing to do with the class/spec, it had EVERYTHING to do with the encounter. I sound like a broken record here, but it's true. I also find it funny a Ret would be complaining about something being "too easy". :) I mean, if ANYTHING was faceroll, it would be Wrath era Ret. (And a lot of these complainers, indeed, were people playing Ret... <_<)


Also...heal meters. Some people say they could top the healing charts by just spamming HL. That they thought you should be able to beat a HL spammer if you used several different buttons. (E.g. Comparing a Druid spamming Wrath to one that cycles Wrath/IS to SF/MF as he goes between Eclipses.)

Uh, dude...if you gauge your healing ability based on meters, you're doin' it wrong. Healing isn't about how much output you do. That's a DPS mindset.

At the end of the day, as a healer, you did your job if people are still alive and you managed to beat the boss and get through the encounter.

THAT is what being a healer is.

Oh yes, an amazing healer makes it look easy, has no one die (even managing to save the stupids), and has plenty of mana left at the end of the fight (or, at least, more than a bad healer would.)

But the goal isn't to top the charts or brag about how much mana you have left over at the end of a fight (which, at the end of the day, shows you were doing LESS than you could have. Mana left over just means less time drinking.)

The goal is to keep the tank and DPS alive so they can kill the baddies. There's no HPS, HPM, mana remaining, or top healing prizes. That isn't what determines a healer's success OR skill.


People like this aren't real healers, they're glory hogs. They wanna be able to say, "Hey, look at me! I chose the RIGHT spell at the RIGHT time and saved the day! Aren't I so great? And I HAD to do it right, cause now topping the charts takes SKILL. So if I'm on the top of the charts, I'm soooo amazing!"

And this is what it comes down to. If the REASON you want it to be more complex is so that you can "show off", then you're an idiot. If it takes "skill" to top the charts, and you want to be able to top the charts so you can show you have skill...yeah, you're an idiot.

That may work with DPS, but that's not the way healing works. Healing isn't a solitary game. The goal isn't to compete with your fellows. The goal is to work together and survive.

And in Cata, that SHOULD be the role of DPS too. CC, kiting, ect. Topping meters should be hard so it can show skill stuff...yeah. It's the mindset of a glory hog.

I can understand wanting to be able to do better with greater skill. But that's always been true. If you have greater skill, you'll have fewer people die and you'll be able to heal with less effort. The payoff, for a healer, to having skill is that YOU have an easier time healing, and in turn, your group doesn't have as much trouble with deaths and respositionings, ect.

Topping healing charts didn't equate to skill in Wrath, but guess what? It won't in Cata either. What will show skill in Cata?

...the same thing that did in Wrath. That you're group survives to finish the encounter. It's just going to take more "skill" in Cata to see that done.


Ugh. Idiots.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
9325


That said, I'm okay with the changes to Healadins. I've healed on a Priest before, and the Holy Paladin now is comparable in difficulty to a Holy Priest. Fewer buttons, more resource mechanics. Some of the changes have put me off, namely we don't have a "good" heal anymore. That is, before, we had HL being TOO good, but FoL wasn't in a bad place, just needed to be a little stronger. Now we DON'T have a good heal. HL is too weak to hold up to incoming damage, so it's more in a, "use while the tank's health is dropping slowly, tossing a FoL/WoG in every now and then to catch back up," area. If damage is coming in faster than 6k per sec, we're never going to be using it.

And the real odd thing to me is that my FoL before 4.0.x healed for MORE than my HL does now...how can it be a "go-to" heal when it's WEAKER than what was a weaker-than-a-wet-noodle heal BEFORE? o.O

The bigger thing with me is that, while we're losing our niche as tank healers, we haven't really gotten the tools for raid healing yet. But I'm comfortable with waiting till 85 before making a final judgment on that because we'll also have Holy Radiance and Guardian of Ancient Kings by then. Each of which will make changes to our healing, so I'm willing to withhold judgment for the time being.



Anyway, sorry to rant, but I just see so many of these threads and they piss me off. Like all the, "Oh, I'll play a Paladin now that they're FUN," threads. I played them when they "weren't fun", and had no problems. Suck it up. :p

Some of the changes are good, some are bad, but they're changes. But if you couldn't play a class before, then that's on you, not the class. Sorry.

[RANT=end]


-takes breath-

I feel better now. ^_^

Still not looking forward to all the glory hog healers who...are probably going to suck when it comes down to it, lol. We'll find out, though. ^_^

...though I have to say I'm enjoying tanking now. I did before, too, though. Some parts are less fun than before, some more...so maybe I'll end up doing that in Cata instead. Either way, tanking or healing I did before the changes, and I'll do them after. I'm not running away in fear of the changes, but I didn't have to have the changes before I'd try a the specs. <_<


[RANT=truly end]

^_^

And no, I'm not mad. Just annoyed at idiocy...feel better now, though. ^_^
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
13650
I am a Paladin
Reply Quote
85 Blood Elf Paladin
2150
Have you ever considered that we enjoy the changes because they're fun and engaging? =)

Speaking of not having a "strong, all around" kind of heal; I think that's the goal. Instead of spamming a single heal for nearly all purposes, that heal was split into three. If you want the through-put, we have Divine Light, but it will cost you mana and time. If you want speed, we have Flash of Light. If you want efficiency, we have Holy Light.
Edited by Adryl on 12/5/2010 10:37 AM PST
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
9325
12/05/2010 10:29 AMPosted by Stallions
I am a Paladin


Indeed. Congrats? ^_^;


12/05/2010 10:34 AMPosted by Adryl
Have you ever considered that we enjoy the changes because they're fun and engaging? =)


Yes, I have. And that I have no real problem with. I do like having several spells that are useful. My complaint is more the people that wanna show off their "leet skillz". And you KNOW there are a lot of those people. :)

Speaking of not having a "strong, all around" kind of heal; I think that's the goal. Instead of spamming a single heal for nearly all purposes, that heal was split into three. If you want the through-put, we have Divine Light, but it will cost you mana and time. If you want speed, we have Flash of Light. If you want efficiency, we have Holy Light.


Yes and no. See, the FoL we had before was a "decent" heal. It wasn't ultra amazing, but it did the job.

In instances or SOME 10 mans (where I didn't have to spam HL such that a single sneeze putting me off by one second meant the tank died and we'd wipe. ^_^), I used FoL as my "go-to" spell, and would interspace it with HS, HL, and SS as the situation dictated.

FoL was strong enough to keep up with most minor damage, would SLOWLY lose over time to moderate damage (so I'd need to toss a HS to spike the tank's health back up), and would lose to heavy damage (where I'd have to switch to throwing a HS then several HLs to get "caught up", then switch back to FoL.)

In a sense, THIS is what I think the Cata design goal was supposed to be.


...keep in mind, though, that was FoL at 1 second cast. Now we have HL at 2.5 which heals for LESS than this FoL did, while enemy damage will be AT LEAST doubling.

What this means is that HL will see very little time used unless they weaken enemy damage or increase the healing done by it. If we're all going oom, but HAVING to chain DL or FoLs, then that means the encounters are tuned wrong or our HL is too weak.

We'll just have to see how it comes down when we can actually hop into level 81 instances, though. :)



So yes, the thought occurred to me. Some people were bored with Holy as it was. But I believe this comes down more to the encounters that were forcing us to spam HL and less on the build of the kit itself. As I said, Holy actually worked rather well built around FoL, and a FoL "build" (which was more in choosing SP geming over Int, really) was actually pretty fun to play in Wrath.

The problem was, the encounters were tuned to REQUIRE HL spam, so FoL builds fell by the wayside in any serious raid. But the FoL build was ALMOST functional, and with an AOE heal, would have made a good raid healer build.


So it wasn't that the class was boring or the kit itself had nothing to do but HL spam. It was that the encounters required HL spam, and so that's what every Healadin ended up doing. Holy WAS (or, at least, had the potential) to be more fun before. The encounter mechanics prevented this.
Reply Quote
85 Blood Elf Paladin
7720
12/05/2010 10:53 AMPosted by Arthinas
What this means is that HL will see very little time used unless they weaken enemy damage or increase the healing done by it. If we're all going oom, but HAVING to chain DL or FoLs, then that means the encounters are tuned wrong or our HL is too weak.


Incorrect, Holy Light is going to be used a LOT. If you're not using Holy Light you're doing it wrong. You're going to be using HL on the tank to heal a bit of damage and build up HoPo to use WoG until his health gets too low and your priority changes to DL or FoL, depending on the amount of incoming damage.
Reply Quote
85 Blood Elf Paladin
4450
I meet all to many healers who cant do their job. Who cant heal fast or hard enough. The kind where your healing along side them and its as if they "as a raid heal" watch the dps's life hit half.. and keep falling see it as, Oh.. should i be healing.. hmm what button.. oh their at 30% ok - {lame heal, heal, lame heal, crit, heal lame heal} in the mean time 2 others are now falling victim to near death. That's where we need to draw the line. Remove people like that "which i hope cataclysm does" and the "i have top hps" people should be less noticeable or shut up completely. Because its hard as hell to be a tank healer as I am, and have to heal the raid while the shaman, priest or druid is scratching their rear wondering when a good time to click is... Its nerve racking. Mean while im starting to run low on mana seemingly keeping 10-25 people going. And in the end of it whether a wipe or not they think nothing of it. I think it comes down here to a "pull your own weight" factor. Im not sure where im going with this now.. It just annoys the Flarg out of me when co-healers dont pull their own weight and us Decent or Good healers have to bail them out... -Arrg!
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
9325
12/05/2010 11:18 AMPosted by Holypope
12/05/2010 10:53 AMPosted by Arthinas
What this means is that HL will see very little time used unless they weaken enemy damage or increase the healing done by it. If we're all going oom, but HAVING to chain DL or FoLs, then that means the encounters are tuned wrong or our HL is too weak.


Incorrect, Holy Light is going to be used a LOT. If you're not using Holy Light you're doing it wrong. You're going to be using HL on the tank to heal a bit of damage and build up HoPo to use WoG until his health gets too low and your priority changes to DL or FoL, depending on the amount of incoming damage.


This is if it heals enough. And if you aren't raid healing.

Of course, this depends on the damage. But from what I understand, normal enemies (the kind you encounter in the world or regular dungeons) will be doing 2x-3x the damage that they do now.

If this is true, HL, as it stands now, will not cut it. Not even for a, "I'm using this till they fall below 50%, then I'll FoL/DL them 2-3 times and go back to HL," sense.


Now, that's what I heard out of Beta. If that turns out not to be the case (e.g. Blackrock 5 man at level 80 enemies only do as much damage as Utgard Keep heroic level 80s do, or less...), then HL may have a place.

But if your tank is getting hit for 10k a second, a 6k heal on a 2.5 sec cast time is NOT going to cut it. Not even as a "tide me over" heal.
Reply Quote
85 Draenei Paladin
7655
Holy needed a redesign because it lacked dynamics. Even if you needlessly used all the spells available before the changes, you were still forced to spam. The new method of healing is more reflexive and engaging. In Cataclysm raids, you no longer can spam ANYTHING, where as even if you used FoL/HS on CD and HL before you had to spam them. I don't like the new design because I think the results will be better. I like it because it is more appropriate to the content. The content is appropriate challenging and quite honestly FUN, which is why I raid. I'm enjoying my Holy Paladin more now than I ever have before.

If this is true, HL, as it stands now, will not cut it. Not even for a, "I'm using this till they fall below 50%, then I'll FoL/DL them 2-3 times and go back to HL," sense.


Yes, you WILL use holy light, or you WILL oom. If you refuse to use Holy Light, I predict your departure from Holy Paladin healing, because no raid group will tolerate you OOMing midway every fight. I beta tested the new raids. Holy Light is even worse than it is now, slower because of less haste, weaker compared to health pools, but is essentially free and helps build Holy Power via ToR. You MUST learn how to use it. FoL and DL both cost between 6k and 7k mana to cast. Your mana pool will be 80k-ish with entry level ilvl346 gear (maybe). This may seem like a lot, but those spells will OOM you almost instantaneously (bear in mind also that you will need to use Holy Radiance quite a bit, and it costs over 11k mana, but has a 30 sec cooldown).

Now might be a good time for you to find a DPS class to play.
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
8785
12/06/2010 5:21 AMPosted by Orocowsaki

WHaaa QQ i am terribad and want to be able to play a game pushing one button. Complex systems and resource management is too complicated for my 3rd grade reading level to comprehend.


Reading and Analysis; two things to do before posting.
As this is obviously not what the author is saying.

*Pencils Orocowsaki into his PaLOLadin list*

Concerning the post.
I understand where the author is coming from on this, the changes are both good and bad to me.
Let's sit tight and see where we are at 85 in Cata Raiding, then we'll have more to say about this.
Edited by Onesimus on 12/6/2010 6:02 AM PST
Reply Quote
80 Tauren Paladin
1980
@OP

I think what you're saying, in basic concept, makes sense and is overall true. However, you chose to phrase it in such a way that guarantees people are likely to take offense to it :p

As far as Holy Light not being enough, you're right. That's the whole point of Holy Shock, Word of Glory, and Light of Dawn.

We have Holy Power mechanics specifically to balance that out, we can Holy Light to keep a steady stream of heals, and use our Holy Power-based mechanics to get a jump on heals when Holy Light is making us fall behind.

Edit:
Don't forget to make use of the dislike/trolling for posts such as the one a few posters up.

Let's try and make these new forums a better place than the old ones.
Edited by Ashodoran on 12/6/2010 8:25 AM PST
Reply Quote
85 Human Paladin
5180
It's funny that you all think "Cata will make it better".

Got news for ya; It's exactly the same thus far.
It was the same in BC, and the same in Vanilla.
It will be the same in Cata.

Somehow you think healing now is better than it was before? To a degree yes it's nice to have new spells, the problem wasn't the spells though. The problem was the encounters and blizzard designing themselves into a corner with no real idea anymore, especially with the BS hard modes in which all they could really do was change 1-2 mechanics and make %*!% hit harder, with a higher DPS requirement so we'd be forced to bring less healers.

Pally's needed a bit of a change, this change is crap. Tolerable, but still crap. The pally healing system wasn't the issue though, it was an encounter problem

BTW, if you honestly think you won't be spamming the same 2-3 spells over and over again, you're blind. If you weren't using your entire tool-box before, you won't now either. Holy shock was amazing before, now it's fan-freaking-tastic. I'll never understand why/how people didn't use it before and just "lolholylight" spam.
Edited by Cealle on 12/6/2010 8:29 AM PST
Reply Quote
80 Tauren Paladin
1980
Instead of complaining about how the game sucks, maybe you could try offering something constructive?

The healing system IS better now. It may need further tuning, but it is definitely more engaging.

And if you don't like hard modes, don't do them. They aren't for everyone.
Reply Quote
85 Human Paladin
5180
I love hard modes, Ulduar HM's were the best in the game...
ICC on the other hand was a joke. Most of them felt thrown together as a side thought.

I didn't say the game sucks, per-say, I was just saying that nothing has changed. They are on the right path, but they need to start thinking this crap through more.
Reply Quote
85 Human Paladin
5180
Good job reading my post as complaining. Hahah

I love hard modes, Ulduar HM's were the best in the game...
ICC on the other hand was a joke. Most of them felt thrown together as a side thought.

I didn't say the game sucks, per-say, I was just saying that nothing has changed. They are on the right path, but they need to start thinking this crap through more.
Reply Quote
80 Tauren Paladin
1980
If you think they are on the right path, what do you believe needs to be further changed to correct the situation? Suggestions are helpful...

And if that post wasn't "complainy", maybe you should think a little more about how you are coming across.
Reply Quote
85 Blood Elf Paladin
11290
No matter how complex or simple healing is, it will always be comparable to Whack-A-Mole. The only difference is how big of a hammer you use on any individual.
Reply Quote
85 Human Paladin
5180
12/06/2010 8:47 AMPosted by Ashodoran
If you think they are on the right path, what do you believe needs to be further changed to correct the situation? Suggestions are helpful...

And if that post wasn't "complainy", maybe you should think a little more about how you are coming across.


You could have a more positive outlook on things instead of reading into the negative. That helps when perusing the posts around here.

For one, they need to get rid of our reliance on the horrible HoPo system. It's pointless all around. The only place where it even slightly fits is with the Ret spec, it really has no place as a healer and any heals from HoPo tend to get grossly ignored.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]