Chakra's current iteration

80 Blood Elf Priest
5985
12/04/2010 10:28 AMPosted by Élise
12/04/2010 10:24 AMPosted by Sallana
Elise, to be perfectly honest, in progression content (so for you I'd say 25man ICC LK and 25man H ICC) you'd be hard pressed to keep people alive if you weren't always in a chakra state.

So you mean nobody could do progression until the 4.0 talents came out?


My point was just that, when you outgear the content you're raiding, things are alot easier. I never meant to come off as saying progression was impossible before the new talents. I was merely suggesting that with your priest's progression into 25man raiding (which most of your gear would be perfect for) that maybe you haven't experienced the same level of raiding the OP has.

Since your achievements mostly indicate some H10man ICC (the first four or so bosses) and only a few bosses in 25man ICC, you should try some more ICC 25 bosses, or some H ICC 25man content before you make statements like...

Right now you'd be wasting mana to stay in a state since you need to cast unnecessary heals to do so. Asking for each spell to add more time to your state so you can keep it up without wasting mana and GCDs for it, and then saying states are necessary to maximize efficiency, I think that's circular logic.


I was just trying to point out how important it is to maximize throughput in the toughest content available.

In a few days none of this will matter, and I'll have to stick with my wait and see approach.
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80 Blood Elf Priest
5985
12/04/2010 11:37 AMPosted by Gimpheala
12/04/2010 10:40 AMPosted by Élise
[quote="12199126172"]No one can until cata is live.

You know what I meant. Sallana is suggesting that progression raiding in WotLK is not feasible without buffs from talents that are new in 4.0.

Are you really this dense? Chakra wasn't a buff, it was something that justified their slashing of our abilities because with it up we can do as well as we used to. It's not like they left the class exactly the same and added chakra to the top of all the old coefficients.
Chakra is absolutely terrible and the sooner they switch it to a stance (or better yet, do away with it) the better. Holy Word Chastise is even worse thanks to its failure to function properly with mouseover macros (yes, I know about the /tar mouseover /click actionbar # one, it still doesn't work right with the heal one).

I wouldn't call her (him?) dense... they seem to have just not understood what I was trying to convey...
We were doing ok before 4.0, now we need to maintain Chakra all the time to be close to that. Without maximizing throughput in WotLK content, with how priests are currently, we're just gimping our raid.
Though at first I enjoyed Chakra, it now seems to just be a gimmicky mini game that other healing classes wouldn't put up with either.
Edited by Sallana on 12/4/2010 12:52 PM PST
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I was merely suggesting that with your priest's progression into 25man raiding (which most of your gear would be perfect for) that maybe you haven't experienced the same level of raiding the OP has.


The OP is very sad that his guild burned out before we could teach 25 people to kill valkyries at the same time as not standing in defiles :(

But killing Putricide 25 before the buff went out felt pretty awesome :)
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85 Gnome Priest
9955
12/04/2010 12:21 PMPosted by Sallana

Though at first I enjoyed Chakra, it now seems to just be a gimmicky mini game that other healing classes wouldn't put up with either.


I (semi) quietly wait for more Holy Priests to wake up to this realization.
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80 Undead Mage
2725
I remember thinking Chakra would be so good, I had it as my #1 talent. I mean #1 out of every talent, not just Holy and not just Priests. Best talent of Cata.

Look where it is now. Our shiny new Hunger for Blood Aura. Ugh.
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85 Tauren Priest
5875
12/04/2010 4:29 PMPosted by Mashin
Look where it is now. Our shiny new Hunger for Blood Aura. Ugh.

The only differences being that this one changes what buttons you press and unlocks a new spell depending on which kind of Blood you're Hungry For. =P

Whether or not Priests "feel" the Chakra they're in is, however, going to depend a lot on whether the job of healing does become more fluid, or if we continue to split ourselves into discrete groups of tank healers and raid healers at the start of the fight. After all, if you never press Circle of Healing (for example) except when in Raid Chakra, you aren't going to feel the difference when you are in it.

And that in turn depends on how the spell efficiencies line up. Generally, a tank healer who knows when to jump on the raid for a little bit (and vice versa) is a lot better for the group's survival than the healer who tunnels in on their job and doesn't stray from it. If, however, mana is so tight that it's always better to default to a Heal on someone than to dare cast a COH or POH in a moment of heavy raid damage while in Tank Chakra, then I'm not sure Holy Priests are actually gaining any true versatility from their spellbook in the face of the mechanic.
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85 Blood Elf Priest
5935
My only issue with chakra is that it still bugs out randomly. I've been spending nearly all my time in the aoe chakra, though. I've fiddled with the heal chakra very little, don't see it being relevant before 85. The only real improvement would be removing the chakra cooldown (or bumping it down to 10-15 seconds); in case things go all to hell it would provide us with more versatility.

I actually do find chakra healing fluid and nearly effortless, but perhaps that's because I have powerauras set up to alert me to which chakra is currently active/how long until the current chakra will expire/cooldown remaining on chakra switch, and it's already become an extension of my eyes/hands. It's not an undue burden, in other words.
Edited by Rachey on 12/4/2010 5:32 PM PST
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82 Blood Elf Priest
7895
12/04/2010 3:56 AMPosted by Red
Remember when we all thought we could fix lightwell?

Those were the days.


From the first time I healed raids in BC on my priest, I knew Lightwell would be a lost cause. I see no use for it in the future.

12/04/2010 12:11 PMPosted by Celeri
I lol'd. Is it really that hard to use Chakra? I try to avoid coming on priests or healing forums due to the amount of QQ about this spell. It's fine. l2p


People are so bent out of shape thinking that they are REQUIRED to be in a Chakra state 100% of the time and if it drops off it's time to /quit. People just need to realize it acts a lot like the new Druid tree form in that you use it to buff healing in certain ways. The QQ on this is, i agree, getting ridiculous.
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85 Draenei Priest
4490
Chakra is pretty.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
4055
12/04/2010 5:39 PMPosted by Kathlas

People are so bent out of shape thinking that they are REQUIRED to be in a Chakra state 100% of the time and if it drops off it's time to /quit. People just need to realize it acts a lot like the new Druid tree form in that you use it to buff healing in certain ways. The QQ on this is, i agree, getting ridiculous.


That's not true. If it was, Priests would have more healing output than any of the other healers since it is possible to have Chakra up 100% of the time. Either you keep Chakra up most of the time, or you're gimp.

Chakra for the most part is fine. Being able to change your healing style to match the fight is pretty cool, and very Holy Priest like. It's the activation / duration mechanic that's annoying and pointless.
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People are so bent out of shape thinking that they are REQUIRED to be in a Chakra state 100% of the time and if it drops off it's time to /quit. People just need to realize it acts a lot like the new Druid tree form in that you use it to buff healing in certain ways. The QQ on this is, i agree, getting ridiculous.


If you look at our spells and compare to say, Druid spells, you'll notice ours heal for only about 65% of the Druid version. Some of that is made up for by Spiritual Healing, but a lot of it is also made up for by Chakra.

Chakra isn't a buff you can have sometimes (like tree form) when you need a lot of healing. Chakra is more like Judgements of the Pure or Hunger for Blood - something you need all the time to be as effective as the other healers.

Chakra is also relatively easy to keep up, at least when compared to things like, say, Tree Form or Avenging Wrath. That, combined with the ever shortening cooldown (and the fact that the cooldown lines up exactly with the duration) also strongly suggests that Chakra should always be active.

You'll also notice that since 4.0.3a there's even an in game aura that triggers only when Chakra falls off. I think the message from Blizzard is clear - If you're playing Holy and you're not in a Chakra state you're either a) doing farm content or b) doing it wrong.

At the very least, no one gets to QQ about Priest throughput if they play like Chakra is on a 3 min cooldown.
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85 Blood Elf Priest
12190
12/04/2010 5:39 PMPosted by Kathlas


People are so bent out of shape thinking that they are REQUIRED to be in a Chakra state 100% of the time and if it drops off it's time to /quit. People just need to realize it acts a lot like the new Druid tree form in that you use it to buff healing in certain ways. The QQ on this is, i agree, getting ridiculous.


This is simply 100% untrue. We are balanced around being in the right chakra state at all times for Cata raids. If you are not in the right Chakra during different part of fights, you are completely gimping yourself in relation to any other healing class that has no restrictions on their use of different healing styles during a fight.

Take a fight like chimaeron. You spend the first part in heal chakra single targeting people hit by bolts. Then when the bot goes off line through massacre you spend that second phase in AOE chakra. If you are not in those chakra states for the entirety of each phase, you are gimping yourself compared to the druids/pallies/shaman who don't have to do any type of transition to adjust their healing.

Take Maloriak. You spend the red phase in AOE chakra, then switch to heal chakra for the blue phase. If you aren't switched when phases change, you're completely gimped as each one calls for very, very different styles of healing. Meanwhile druids/pallies/shaman have no worries switching.

Take Atramedes. You ideally want to spend the entire fight in AOE chakra, but damage hits hard and then there's none really for a long time, then another burst. The way it's currently set up, you have to actively overheal people just to keep your chakra state up. Otherwise you're stuck getting it back up through the first spell after the AOE blast. You get another spell or two off, and people are mostly topped or actively being healed by others. You just had 30-50% of your effective spells not benefited by chakra.

The recent iteration of chakra is almost there, but I think it needs one of two changes:
1) PoH should increase the time by 1-2 seconds per target. This rewards priests who use it correctly with regard to where people are standing. If you get off a full PoH you're rewarded with 5 or 10 seconds of extra time added on, whereas if you are lazy you may only get 1 to 2 seconds extra.
2) Renew should either boost AOE chakra duration when it's cast or its ticks should have a % chance to increase the chakra when they tick.

While some might say that "it's fine to let it fall off, just reapply it," I say:
A) why should this be the case when no other healing class must do this just to put out the same healing?
B) That spell you cast to reapply chakra does not get the benefit of the chakra state. Why should one of my spells every 30-45 seconds be gimped just to maintain a buff that should be more fluid in its design?
Edited by Sandstorms on 12/4/2010 7:30 PM PST
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80 Undead Mage
2725
12/04/2010 4:41 PMPosted by Believe
12/04/2010 4:29 PMPosted by Mashin
Look where it is now. Our shiny new Hunger for Blood Aura. Ugh.

The only differences being that this one changes what buttons you press and unlocks a new spell depending on which kind of Blood you're Hungry For. =P

Whether or not Priests "feel" the Chakra they're in is, however, going to depend a lot on whether the job of healing does become more fluid, or if we continue to split ourselves into discrete groups of tank healers and raid healers at the start of the fight. After all, if you never press Circle of Healing (for example) except when in Raid Chakra, you aren't going to feel the difference when you are in it.

And that in turn depends on how the spell efficiencies line up. Generally, a tank healer who knows when to jump on the raid for a little bit (and vice versa) is a lot better for the group's survival than the healer who tunnels in on their job and doesn't stray from it. If, however, mana is so tight that it's always better to default to a Heal on someone than to dare cast a COH or POH in a moment of heavy raid damage while in Tank Chakra, then I'm not sure Holy Priests are actually gaining any true versatility from their spellbook in the face of the mechanic.


The reason I refer to it as an aura is because it suffers from all the drawbacks of an aura, but none of the bonuses. Aura's drawbacks are the opportunity cost of using one over another, much like the same cost of being in a Chakra state. The bonus, however, is that an Aura is always on and it can be changed at whim. Chakra does not share either of these bonuses, and can lock a priest out of shifting from one state to the next, AND it isn't even always on, but requires constant attention for no reason (see: hunger for blood) that, by activating it, locks us. It's ridiculous. It's not a cooldown, it doesn't improve our flexibility and it acts only as a limiter in most cases. In fact, every time someone mentions Chakra, they almost always follow up with "and the holy word it gives us." It's almost as if the holy word is more important than Chakra itself.

Contrast this to what Chakra was doing originally (even if that design was unintended). Activating Chakra was a pain in the ass, admittedly. However, you could roll multiple chakras at once, so a priest could sit there busting his butt keeping up 2 or even 3 chakra states and see an increase in healing capacity. This worked though, because a priest suffers from the worst mana regen in the game and with limited mana pools, running 3 chakra states was extremely mana consuming. In a game with infinite mana, this wouldn't work and would just serve to make priests more powerful than their counterparts. In a mana limited world, priests looked like the arcane mage of the healing world, able to convert their mana pool directly into massive healing at a great cost that overshadowed their counter-parts, but only for so long until they exhausted themselves. Good priests would run a single chakra and do well at healing. Great priests would run 3 chakras when they needed to and 0-1 when they didn't. Our massive healing toolbox would actually see a use, utilizing it in its entirety would reward us by turning on our Chakra states as we used them, then great priests would recognize when they need to throttle back or run dry. In a word, fun.

Today, its Hunger for Blood aura. And it sucks.

edit - the forums auto convert bad words. Cute.
Edited by Mashin on 12/4/2010 8:48 PM PST
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