Shared Cooldowns.

85 Human Paladin
8065
First, removing divine storm's requirement of holy power, great idea.
Second, take crusader strike off of the shared cool down. It is currently the only reason we are gimped. Taking this off the shared cool down would ensure our ability to hit some key rather than wait a full second of doing no damage.
Third, increase divine storm's damage, it is so low that it is only worthwhile on more than 5 mobs. Hitting three? use seal of righteousness and be done with it.
Fourth, make holy wrath hit the same on one target as it does on multiple targets much the way holy nova or fan of knives does.

I like this holy power system blizzard, but for the love of god, don't make me stand there and twiddle my thumbs during a fight.

Challenge: Name one class that is melee that has to wait for items to come off cool down.

hint: death knights have a runic power dump.
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100 Human Paladin
10670
Paladins were ment to be a support class. Ret was never ment to be big on dps. During your 2 second downtime, do some word of glory heals or throw a flash heal here and there.

I am happy with what they did with paladins. We are no longer warriors with a blue rage bar. And if you seen paladins during wrath times and decided to make one then, Well since wrath was undead heavy its no doubt paladins would seem to shine more than other classes then.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
10185
12/04/2010 10:29 AMPosted by Knilb

Third, increase divine storm's damage, it is so low that it is only worthwhile on more than 5 mobs. Hitting three? use seal of righteousness and be done with it.

That's the point. It's supposed to be an ability you use on AOE pulls, not on every single pull.
Fourth, make holy wrath hit the same on one target as it does on multiple targets much the way holy nova or fan of knives does.
The design behind Holy Wrath is that it does the same amount of damage regardless of how many targets there are so Paladins don't get "free" dps boost against multiple targets when using their single-target rotation.
I don't necessarily like the design and feel that Holy Wrath could be a more interesting ability, but your "solution" is terrible.
Challenge: Name one class that is melee that has to wait for items to come off cool down.
Fury Warriors
Here I'll name another one for you:
Enhancement Shamans

12/04/2010 11:22 AMPosted by Roan
Paladins were ment to be a support class. Ret was never ment to be big on dps. During your 2 second downtime, do some word of glory heals or throw a flash heal here and there.

I am happy with what they did with paladins. We are no longer warriors with a blue rage bar. And if you seen paladins during wrath times and decided to make one then, Well since wrath was undead heavy its no doubt paladins would seem to shine more than other classes then.

"Support class" was only relevant in classic WoW and it dies shortly afterwards in TBC. There are no support classes any more.
Retribution is intended to be viable as a dps specialization with a choice of trading damage for support through casting heals, using holy power on Word of Glory instead of Inquisition/Templar's Verdict, and global cooldowns on Hand spells and Cleanse.
Edited by Tonîc on 12/4/2010 11:31 AM PST
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100 Human Paladin
10670
12/04/2010 11:27 AMPosted by Tonîc

"Support class" was only relevant in classic WoW and it dies shortly afterwards in TBC. There are no support classes any more.
Retribution is intended to be viable as a dps specialization with a choice of trading damage for support through casting heals, using holy power on Word of Glory instead of Inquisition/Templar's Verdict, and global cooldowns on Hand spells and Cleanse.

Cata is 'supposed' to bring back more than the basic "damage", "tank", and "healer" duty in an instance and raid. I've noticed if tanks are in a pinch and in need of heavy heals, a ret paladin can switch over to "heal mode" and mana dump flash heals on a tank to help pick up his health from danger area and still make due with 500 mana and pick it up without a problem.
That's what I more so ment as support class. The damage they do is on par but it won't be the best. We can change in situational spots.
Edited by Roan on 12/4/2010 11:39 AM PST
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90 Draenei Paladin
0
What the hell is this, 2005?

If I queue as a DPS, I expect to be a DPS on par with any other, not some half-assed intentionally-low damage dealer expected to drop everything and spam heals at the first sign of trouble. Go campaign for your backwards idea of "support class" somewhere else.
Edited by Mirrora on 12/4/2010 11:50 AM PST
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85 Human Paladin
8065
So what you guys are saying is that you agree with taking crusader strike off shared cooldown?
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
3635
12/04/2010 11:27 AMPosted by Tonîc
"Support class" was only relevant in classic WoW and it dies shortly afterwards in TBC. There are no support classes any more.
Retribution is intended to be viable as a dps specialization with a choice of trading damage for support through casting heals, using holy power on Word of Glory instead of Inquisition/Templar's Verdict, and global cooldowns on Hand spells and Cleanse.
Ret was still a support class in TBC. It wasn't until 3.0 that their damage became viable enough to bring more than one to a raid.
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85 Human Paladin
3710
Ret has a number of issues, and I don't think divine storm on a shared cooldown is one of them.

This could also be solved by reducing the base cd of crusader strike. That would help fix the gaps you speak of.

We already have to worry about Holy wrath breaking cc's. We don't need another mandatory aoe that could potentially break a cc and wipe the group.
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12/04/2010 11:47 AMPosted by Mirrora
What the hell is this, 2005?

If I queue as a DPS, I expect to be a DPS on par with any other, not some half-assed intentionally-low damage dealer expected to drop everything and spam heals at the first sign of trouble. Go campaign for your backwards idea of "support class" somewhere else.


And if a group wipes because you chose not to be flexible or use your utility?

Sorry but, in Cata, crowd control is required. Being flexible is required. Don't like it? Go play a warrior.
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85 Human Paladin
11810
12/04/2010 10:29 AMPosted by Knilb
First, removing divine storm's requirement of holy power, great idea.
This was a good and needed change, and about the only good thing you say.
12/04/2010 10:29 AMPosted by Knilb
Second, take crusader strike off of the shared cool down. It is currently the only reason we are gimped. Taking this off the shared cool down would ensure our ability to hit some key rather than wait a full second of doing no damage.

I rarely go a full second without anything to hit. DS is for aoe and CS is for single target, same as HotR is aoe and CS is single target.
[quote="12199526948"]Third, increase divine storm's damage, it is so low that it is only worthwhile on more than 5 mobs. Hitting three? use seal of righteousness and be done with it.[/quote] DS is for aoe now, not single target.
[quote="12199526948"]Fourth, make holy wrath hit the same on one target as it does on multiple targets much the way holy nova or fan of knives does.[/quote] Do rogues use fan of knives in a single target fight? No. Do we use holy wrath in an single target fight? Yes.
Edited by Donyoku on 12/4/2010 12:22 PM PST
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85 Human Paladin
11810
Eh to lazy to fix the quotes.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
7970
12/04/2010 11:47 AMPosted by Mirrora
What the hell is this, 2005?

If I queue as a DPS, I expect to be a DPS on par with any other, not some half-assed intentionally-low damage dealer expected to drop everything and spam heals at the first sign of trouble. Go campaign for your backwards idea of "support class" somewhere else.


If I could sig this, I would.
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90 Draenei Paladin
0
12/04/2010 12:15 PMPosted by Illidria
12/04/2010 11:47 AMPosted by Mirrora
What the hell is this, 2005?
If I queue as a DPS, I expect to be a DPS on par with any other, not some half-assed intentionally-low damage dealer expected to drop everything and spam heals at the first sign of trouble. Go campaign for your backwards idea of "support class" somewhere else.

And if a group wipes because you chose not to be flexible or use your utility?
Sorry but, in Cata, crowd control is required. Being flexible is required. Don't like it? Go play a warrior.

I actually edited my original post to avoid exactly this response, and still got it.
I did not say "DPS and only DPS." I am all for DPS using their tools to aid a group. What I object to is Roan's idea that Ret should be intentionally a substandard DPS spec so it can offheal. Nobody in their right mind is going to bring a ret paladin just in case a healer stands in the fire, and nobody expects a ret paladin to keep a tank up through any serious damage.
What I said, and what I mean, is that if I join a group as a DPS, I want to be able to DPS on par with any other DPS spec, regardless of any utility I may or may not have.
/soapbox
Edited by Mirrora on 12/4/2010 12:37 PM PST
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85 Human Paladin
3710
12/04/2010 12:22 PMPosted by Donyoku
Eh to lazy to fix the quotes.


While your last 2 points make sense, I am assuming that your ret gear has nice amount of haste on it. Would I be correct in making that assumption? If I am, how much haste?

The problem with saying that you rarely have to wait now, is that it is not indicative of how long you will have to wait at the bottom teir of class gear for an expansion. Your haste ratings will not be as inflated in teir 11. This will cause more waiting than you are doing now.
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100 Human Paladin
10670
12/04/2010 12:36 PMPosted by Mirrora

I actually edited my original post to avoid exactly this response, and still got it.
I did not say "DPS and only DPS." I am all for DPS using their tools to aid a group. What I object to is Roan's idea that Ret should be intentionally a substandard DPS spec so it can offheal. Nobody in their right mind is going to bring a ret paladin just in case a healer stands in the fire, and nobody expects a ret paladin to keep a tank up through any serious damage.
What I said, and what I mean, is that if I join a group as a DPS, I want to be able to DPS on par with any other DPS spec, regardless of any utility I may or may not have.
/soapbox


Idea? No thats what it is. We are good dps, but not all classes are to be equal. Theres priorities in whats good, and then best dps. We are among the good not the best. Because we can adapt to different situations. Warriors and rogues can't. When @*%@ hits the fan all they can do is try to dps harder...
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I actually edited my original post to avoid exactly this response, and still got it.
I did not say "DPS and only DPS." I am all for DPS using their tools to aid a group. What I object to is Roan's idea that Ret should be intentionally a substandard DPS spec so it can offheal. Nobody in their right mind is going to bring a ret paladin just in case a healer stands in the fire, and nobody expects a ret paladin to keep a tank up through any serious damage.
What I said, and what I mean, is that if I join a group as a DPS, I want to be able to DPS on par with any other DPS spec, regardless of any utility I may or may not have.
/soapbox


Well forgive my poking then. The way it was written I assumed it was a one way dislike of doing something other than DPS, which we do need an upping in, that's for sure.

Idea? No thats what it is. We are good dps, but not all classes are to be equal. Theres priorities in whats good, and then best dps. We are among the good not the best. Because we can adapt to different situations. Warriors and rogues can't. When @*%@ hits the fan all they can do is try to dps harder...


Well, fights will be worked around as gear increases, what then? The idea of a hybrid was tossed out long ago because why bring somebody mediocre when you could have the full monte. People have a right to worry about their DPS being called into question.

We just don't have the mana pools to sit there and be everyone's grand savior. If we're brought as Ret, we should be able to deal competitive damage along with others, or else why bring us? There's 2 Pally buffs now, that can be covered by anyone.

Our class needs help, not more splices.
Edited by Illidria on 12/4/2010 2:23 PM PST
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86 Human Paladin
4215
12/04/2010 1:12 PMPosted by Roan
12/04/2010 12:36 PMPosted by Mirrora

I actually edited my original post to avoid exactly this response, and still got it.
I did not say "DPS and only DPS." I am all for DPS using their tools to aid a group. What I object to is Roan's idea that Ret should be intentionally a substandard DPS spec so it can offheal. Nobody in their right mind is going to bring a ret paladin just in case a healer stands in the fire, and nobody expects a ret paladin to keep a tank up through any serious damage.
What I said, and what I mean, is that if I join a group as a DPS, I want to be able to DPS on par with any other DPS spec, regardless of any utility I may or may not have.
/soapbox


Idea? No thats what it is. We are good dps, but not all classes are to be equal. Theres priorities in whats good, and then best dps. We are among the good not the best. Because we can adapt to different situations. Warriors and rogues can't. When @*%@ hits the fan all they can do is try to dps harder...


In a raid our "support" is useless, people get 1 shot when things go south, unless you think dropping a WoG heal crit on someone is going to magically save the raid, lol. Ret is a DPS spec, and if it can't at least come close to the other classes, it'll be right back to where it was in Vanilla and BC, Not raiding or raiding as holy.
Edited by Rorlt on 12/4/2010 2:59 PM PST
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85 Human Paladin
6075
Im sick of all this "support class" What support do we have now? We give kings...THATS ALL!!
We are a dps class, a healer class and a tank class.

Classes should do the same amount of healing/dmg/support

I think TV and DS should act the same. Like they had it before, one for ST, one for MT.
Edited by Kemplore on 12/4/2010 3:23 PM PST
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The reason that classes have moved away from "support" is because when everything goes well, you want full dps classes to nuke and when everything goes south, a "support" ret is not going to be able to save anyone. There's no real in between with a class that has the intellect pool of a maggot and a spec that forces a choice between dps and heals. If you're going to let your dps nosedive to toss 3 heals before you're oom, you should have just rolled holy.
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