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I didnt think i would see the day i was 12th on the charts "12k" on saurfang . It was just a fun run But still only to pull 12k i used to do atleast 15k with the old system . Even with the new Hp changes i was around 15-17k. On bosses outside of icc buff i used to hold atleast 10k now sitting around 8-9 .
I dont see how this is going to scale in our favor , From what beta people are saying rets dont look any better at 85 .
I dont need to be tops dps , i didnt need to do 22k like warriors i was fine with being solid 15-17k , but now we really bring nothing "Holy&Prot can bring the same buffs" to raiding if where lowest on the charts .
With all the 10 man raiding thats going to be happening theres so many better classes to bring in now .We wont even have a spot . Every Melee class can bring the same CC or interrupts that we do and now can out preform us also no matter how skilled you are.
What makes me upset the most is DS is a joke , Just take it out of the game
TV is lame really i have to build up 3 hp to use and it hits less then my Exo .
theres alot of problems "not just Rets " and im really just getting tiered of ghostcrawler excuses .
Just fix them plz.
Ret seems to have a lot of issues as their are so many abilities and stats that clash.
Art of war: You want a fast weapon for more procs on our "best" ability, and its completely random resulting in crazy burst or empty rotations.
Crusader strike/TV/autoattacks: You want a slow weapon for more damage for these and yet they all do comparatively the same damage(at least at my level, even TV seems rather lackluster)
Divine purpose: More rng for EVERY paladin ability, more stable than the others simply because it has such a high chance but still makes you stare at the HP bar to much imo.
Mastery: Another proc that is completely random and again.. favors a fast 2 hander which works against the other 60% of our damage.
The whole paladin spec is overloaded with randomness and clashing needs.
Im not gonna pretend that i know how to fix it, but its only gonna get worse as time moves forward.
At least make some of our RNG abilities PPM, or give us a more reliable way to activate them. DKs have a really nice fluid RNG system with their random runes activating only when they use runic power, or Killing machine procing at regular intervals. This is what is missing for rets.. control.
Don't get me wrong, i feel its more fun than the previous ret. Yet it feels like the whole ret spec is collapsing in on itself.
Don't mean to whine too much, i haven't even played at 85 yet so i could be all wrong. Just my opinion from what i have seen.
Edit: cleaned it up a lil
Edit#2: not sure why i keep saying path of war instead of art of war, silly me
Edited by Velcat on 12/5/2010 4:43 AM PST
In another thread someone was talking about how they hate the default UI because it keeps all the info so far from your action bars. Someone replied saying, "who keeps their eyes on their action bar?" I didn't reply, but I couldn't help but think, "I wonder if that person has ever played a ret paladin, even moreso now".
I have several different classes at 80: paladin, hunter, spriest, and death knight, and a couple that I'm leveling now: 62 prot warrior, 76 frost mage. Out of these classes, none of them make me more prone to tunnel visioning my spell cooldowns like ret does (prot is fine). All those other classes I hardly ever have to check on what abilities are available from one moment to the next. For ret there just seems to be a lot more going on.
My spriest is probably the easiest to be honest, followed closely by the frost mage. I could hide my action bars on those two and be just fine as long as I had some sort of power aura setup for showing the longer cooldowns that I can't just mentally track/count in my head.
I find it strange, during the past 2 years ive played a feral druid, every spec of rogue.. even going as far to try and raid as sub when it wasnt the best spec but my guild didnt care. I even raided as a enhancement shaman for a good 6 months in icc thinking it was the most frusterating to play.. but in a good way.
Ret has given me a run for my money. I stare at action bars then have to stare up at my Holy power bar, then move to my health and positioning to make sure im not dying. I might just be bad, but for the first time im feeling a tad overwhelmed. Still playing it though just to see if i can find a good groove with it lol.
one thing thats help me alot with HP was IceHud addon it allowed me to but 3 big yellow circles right under my feet . Its HoW ,CS, JUD ,HW, EXO that bother me its still a priority list and with random procs everywhere im constantly having to look at my cds , this is where my tunnel vision comes to play . PVP did help alot to get use to it . But out of all my toons this is the worst feeling class right now that im playing .
Edited by Justicär on 12/5/2010 5:19 AM PST
Maybe it was just me, but the thing I enjoyed about ret in wotlk was that I didn't have to focus on my offensive abilities that much (sounds bad coming from spec designed to deal damage... but whatever). In turn I had really good raid awareness and could focus on helping the raid survive. It helped being a raid leader because I could see everything that was going on and I guess... "command" the raid group as we progressed.
I'm not against making the rotation more complicated. I just feel like ret in PvE and PvP went from being relaxing to being my most annoying 80 to play. I spend most of my time staring at my holy power or at my action bar. It seems like I'm either sitting there with absolutely nothing proccing and doing terrible dps or I'm overloaded with procs. And even with procs I'm still out dps'ed by any caster smashing their face against their keyboard.
TV is garbage. The sound it makes is annoying and the animation is boring. Unleashing your built up holy power should be climatic. It's like a big build up then... oh wait an ability that hits for minutely more than my exorcism. I spend the entire time in PvP struggling to get to 3 holy power because I can be kited or cc'd by just about anyone, and then when i get to 3 I'm either forced to use it to heal or the damage is absorbed by some scrub mage bouncing around with an ice barrier.
Blizzard should have either added more procs to ret rotation so it became more complicated or added holy power. Not both at once.
inb4 the changes are intended to be balanced at 85.
ya i hear ya , i ran our raids i was the one calling out defile !! since the changes i have given up leading the runs let my buddy take over i was totally more into just learning our class over .
85 Draenei Mage
Great post. On this guy and my demo lock, I hardly ever look at the action bars. After a little practice / experience one can feel the cool downs and flow and just play the mob / situation. On my pally, my eyes are on the action bar looking for the filler off of cool down or when I can throw my next CS or above to see when my dangle is full so I can go for TV. My ret pally was my main and far out favorite, but with the changes no more. To bad, I hope that the play style of pallys is fixed some day.
I agree this feels like orginal wow all over agin where ret paladins only had a few good spells, and now we got a bunch of useless ones now. DS,CS , judgement, are a joke. TV is semi good but i can never even use it due to healing myself or I die. EXO proc is once in a blue moon when I don't even really need it. Which leaves me with hammer of wrath proc from AW which is a big cd and which puts a big arrow on my head for the whole team to take me down first or cc me . I can't really kill anyone in pvp. Failadin all over again! Now that everyone has a stun and a silence this is worse then orginal wow for pvp. I remember when I couldn't even get into groups or raids cause i was a ret paladin they called us loladins lols
I'm not surprised almost everyone is using phrases like "tunnel vision" to describe playing a ret paladin. I've mentioned intermittent rewards before, but let me go into more detail.
Intermittent rewards are very well understood in psychology, and heavily studied. In a nutshell, an intermittent reward is one that is periodic but unpredictable. The classic example is the the lab experiment where a mouse pushes a little button with its nose and is occasionally rewarded with a food pellet.
It turns out that intermittent rewards are extraordinarily strong conditioners of behavior. That little mouse will push the little button over and over, just hoping to get a reward. It will watch it like a hawk after each push, waiting to see what happens. Note that you do not get the same obsessive behavior if the reward is made regular; instead, the mouse will work out the pattern and soon go on to other things except when hungry.
Our rng system of generating the ret paladin's primary resource is a pretty classic example of an intermittent reward. It is no surprise that it causes players to tunnel vision; in fact, it is almost inevitable. Blizzard has essentially turned our holy power bar into a tiny little slot machine.
I have built a really slick holy power UI via power auras. I have concentric half-circles that close in my avatar as holy power builds, until at three holy power I have a bright red aura beside me, pulsing, with a loud whooshing noise. I have tullranged enabled so that my TV and zealotry buttons only light up at three holy power. I have logged at least a hundred hours with holy power, including solo, 5-man, raid, and pvp. And I still tunnel vision. It's unavoidable.
As a tank and ret in both PvE and PvP environments, I feel all the concerns brought up by this thread.
For issue regarding watching procs and Holy Power, I recommend two things: The first is the ICE HUD add-on mentioned above. You can set it up to display many things pertinent to PvE or PvP including Holy Power build-up. The second is to make sure you have your interface options set so that your procs show up on the middle of the screen. Art of War will show up as two swords on either side of your avatar when it procs, and Hand of Light will show up as some sort of squiggly bar above it. These two features should help you keep your eyes on the middle of the screen where the action is while being able to monitor your Holy Power and procs.
For the issue regarding damage output, I think it is premature to complain about DPS since balance is supposed to come in the department at 85, not our current level of 80. In fact, complaining about DPS right now is the least of a Ret's worries. Ret has much deeper problems with its fundamentals (i.e. RNG). DPS should be the last on our list of concerns for both PvE and PvP until Ret's core mechanics are smoothed out.
How can the mechanics be fine when our mastery competes with our 31 point talent, and when our mastery is so utterly worthless?
The mastery problem will get worse with each tier. Given that most tier items have mastery on them, we are essentially losing a third of the secondary stat off each item. Well, less now because we can reforge some of it, but it's still a pretty severe mechanical disadvantage to overcome.
It might dumb down the class a little bit but im all up for getting rid of all the random HP generation. Prot and holy seem alot more managable since you KNOW how much HP you have before you look at the bar since you have control over when you get it.
Not looking at my HP bar would free up some time to watch where the heck im going lol
EDIT: i also have no clue how much harder things will be watching our inquisition duration..
That means i have to pay attention to cooldowns, Art of war procs, mastery procs, Holy power, Inquisition every 30 seconds, and on top of that try and jump threw hoops for whichever crazy mechanic they add to boss fights. Idk but it sounds like a headache to me.
Edited by Velcat on 12/5/2010 7:08 PM PST
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