Enhancement AoE

85 Orc Shaman
5505
I refuse to use the current implementation. As of now I've removed fire nova and magma totem from my bars for both pvp and pve. The upside to this is it free's two keybinds in a class cluttered with useless/situational totems. Fire nova and magma serve almost no purpose in my eyes. Their damage is immobile, weak, inconvenient and heavy on the gcds. Why should i bother doing my paltry AoE (which is contrary to fun) while every other class can enjoy doing theirs and get the job done quickly without me.

I used to enjoy fire nova for pvp in its previous implementation. I never enjoyed it as part of the mind boggling single target rotation. Now with searing flames, magma serves even less of a purpose than it ever did. I suppose this is fine if the expectation in Cataclysm is that at no point will anyone be using AoE for any reason, otherwise you will see many enhancement shamans standing there twiddling their thums. Or if they've the patience, they might continue on with their single target rotation.

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90 Tauren Shaman
12680
Gogo boycott!
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85 Draenei Shaman
9780
In PvP, i'd consider using flametongue totem, especially if you don't already have the 6% buff from another Shaman. This way, you can use fire nova and you don't have to redrop your totem, using a precious global cooldown, all while buffing your spell damage, your healing, and the spell damage and healing of group members.
In PvE, they want you to be using AoE abilities in AoE situations and single-target abilities in single-target situations. Fire Nova needed the divine storm/whirlwind treatment. Since Enhancement Shamans use a priority system that lacks a very short cooldown filler like ret and warriors have, this was the best way to fix it.

I'm a fan of the way they implemented this in PvE--it gives enhancement shamans who have to drop flametongue totem in 10-man raids a small DPS boost to make up for not dropping searing.
Edited by Orcheon on 12/4/2010 10:44 AM PST
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90 Orc Shaman
13395
Magma/Fire Nova combo is indeed lackluster in both fun and efficiency, but I think boycotting the abilities is probably one of the worst ways to go about asking for changes. If you have suggestions on methods of changing the existing abilities or even new abilities to perform roles that you feel are insufficiently represented, you should bring those to this forum for additional feedback where the CMs can maybe do something with it.
Edited by Sadou on 12/4/2010 10:46 AM PST
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85 Draenei Shaman
9780
The only alternative would have been to give enhancement a filler ability better than fire nova on single targets.
Edited by Orcheon on 12/4/2010 10:48 AM PST
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90 Tauren Shaman
12680
12/04/2010 10:45 AMPosted by Sadou
Magma/Fire Nova combo is indeed lackluster in both fun and efficiency, but I think boycotting the abilities is probably one of the worst ways to go about asking for changes. If you have suggestions on methods of changing the existing abilities or even new abilities to perform roles that you feel are insufficiently represented, you should bring those to this forum for additional feedback where the CMs can maybe do something with it.

History shows that Blizzard *does* take notice when a class chooses not to use something, whether it be a talent or a spell.

See: Sentry Totem.
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85 Human Warlock
3755
I'm sure the multi-million dollar company is trembling in boots and scratching its head at the thought - nay, the raw power - of a single shaman from an unpronounceable guild has, with great duress, removed a digital button from his digital bars.

The reckoning is coming, Blizzard. Look what happened when Mages took Polymorph off their bars in Wrath! The entire world blew up!

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90 Tauren Shaman
12680
12/04/2010 12:18 PMPosted by Vogie
The reckoning is coming, Blizzard. Look what happened when Mages took Polymorph off their bars in Wrath! The entire world blew up!

Well, technically.... it did....
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90 Tauren Shaman
12680
12/04/2010 2:27 PMPosted by Ukaa
12/04/2010 12:18 PMPosted by Vogie
I'm sure the multi-million dollar company is trembling in boots and scratching its head at the thought - nay, the raw power - of a single shaman from an unpronounceable guild has, with great duress, removed a digital button from his digital bars.

The reckoning is coming, Blizzard. Look what happened when Mages took Polymorph off their bars in Wrath! The entire world blew up!


Mages are a bad example because they've always been favorites by players. More classes need to be treated like mages.

Even better: more classes need to be treated like Druids.
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90 Draenei Shaman
13090
Enhancement AoE is a joke.

I have -never- heard someone say Enhancement AoE is fun. The numbers are way too low to be fun, but I don't think Fire Nova hitting for 20k per target would make it fun... it would simply make it effective.

Chain Lightning is a fun spell, I'll give it that. FN and MT are atrociously bad, though. Nothing fun about them. Even though they are "our thing" being totem based AoE, they aren't fun. Even if you LOVE totems, they aren't fun. While I'm not one to normally make accusations about Blizzard employees with some weigth don't play a certain spec, class, role, or area in the game, I do think Enhancement AoE has been completely overlooked and ignored by developers.

As just about every spec in the game (and I've played a good 20 of them) I look forward to AoE because it's fun. Enhancement is the only exception, despite it being the most fun for me single target.

Enhancement AoE seriously needs to be rebuilt.
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85 Draenei Shaman
3545
Yeah, I'll probably just ignore aoe situations as well. Or hop around interrupting casters or whatever.

What I really, really want them to do is allow chain lightning to spread to additional targets when used on a target with the stormstrike debuff.
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85 Orc Shaman
5505
At Matuk - this thread isn't about boycotting.

At Orcheron - I'm not sure your input should be considered because it's obvious you don't play this spec. Never would an enhancement use flametongue for any reason.

At Vogie - your postdegrades the thread and adds absolutely nothing. Again, it's not about boycotting. If a certain aspect of the game is broken beyond good usage I'd bet they'd like to get some input on it. Every good company cares about what their customers think. Blizzard is a good company; they do care. Furthermore, on hot topics like this you should assume its not limited to just one shaman. But I digress, and I've wasted far too much time on a useless troll post.

At Ashunera - you basically hit it dead on :)

At Swampdonkeys - here we have another good idea and another heart who cares about the issue and has experienced it himself.
Edited by Banzaii on 12/4/2010 9:54 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Hunter
14200
12/04/2010 3:42 PMPosted by Ashunera
As just about every spec in the game (and I've played a good 20 of them) I look forward to AoE because it's fun. Enhancement is the only exception, despite it being the most fun for me single target.


What makes AoE fun in the other specs? If you could pinpoint that, then that might lead to some more productive feedback (not to say that your current feedback isn't productive). Personally I prefer Enhancement AoE to hunter AoE, but that very well could be that I don't play enhancement as much so it seems different. It would be useful to me to see exactly what attracts you to other AoE mechanisms.
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85 Undead Warlock
7580
need to get rid of stupid searing and magma totems and just make the primary aoe spell for shammys chain lightning like they did to hunters multi-shot.
just change the spell to not have the dmg reduced from hitting multiple targets
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90 Orc Shaman
18460
12/05/2010 11:17 AMPosted by Halmilloth
need to get rid of stupid searing and magma totems and just make the primary aoe spell for shammys chain lightning like they did to hunters multi-shot.
just change the spell to not have the dmg reduced from hitting multiple targets


Magma Totem is like our explosive trap, it serves a purpose and fits our spec/class design just like explosive trap fits for Hunters. Fire Nova is our Volley. A channeled ranged AoE for a ranged melee class doesn't work since so much of their damage revolves around auto-shot, so the channel has to compensate for all of that as well as being AoE, so it's either overpowered or underpowered and all around it needed to be removed.

Fire Nova doesn't work because it is a short cooldown point blank AoE centered around a pre-positioned totem. Melee AoE and melee dps in general are all about getting and staying in melee range of whatever we are attacking. Fire Nova just doesn't fit with that philosophy. If we were a tanking class and fire nova was used to get and/or maintain threat on a group, then it would be fine but as a melee dps spec it just doesn't work.

This is the list of suggested changes I have for our AoE after all the discussion in the K.I.S.S thread.

- Fire Nova changed to work off all Fire totems but it consumes the totem with it's attack
- Improved Fire Nova talent changed to Magma Storm

    Magma Storm: your Magma totem attacks 50/100% faster then normal and when you deal damage with Chain Lightning you have a chance* to gain a stack of Maelstrom Weapon

*chance equal to the chance to gain a maelstrom weapon stack on a mainhand melee attack

Then we have the option to frontload AoE damage by destroying whatever fire totem we happen to have active but the damage (since it wouldn't change from current levels) would make it so that it wouldn't be worth it to use if there was already a Magma Totem active unless the things were about to be repositioned away from the totem anyway since then you would be dropping a new totem anyway when the pack stops moving.

Basically making Fire Nova into a utility spell while our AoE would just be a combination of Chain Lightning and a quicker attacking Magma Totem. Would also help to reinforce using a slow mainhand since that would have a much higher chance of gaining a stack of Maelstrom Weapon whenever CL did damage.
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49 Human Warlock
700

12/05/2010 11:52 AMPosted by Rouncer
Magma Totem is like our explosive trap, it serves a purpose and fits our spec/class design just like explosive trap fits for Hunters. Fire Nova is our Volley.


Umm....this is wrong. Yet another example of trying to downplay the importance of Fire Nova.

Explosive trap = Magma (periodic)
Multi Shot = Fire Nova (instant)
Volley = Earthquake, or for Enhance closest to Magma (periodic)

You could say our situation is like Hunter's having to drop a trap before they can use Multishot.

Do you think hunters would rather see more of their aoe damage go toward multi shot or explosive trap? My guess is multi shot since it's much easier to use, and the trap are stationary and take time to be effective. I'm sure hunter's would throw a fit if you wanted to remove their multi shot in favor of just a much stronger explosive trap too.

What would having magma explode solve other then spending another gcd to drop magma again? We already have the potential to get proper burst aoe damage from Fire Nova off any fire totem, we don't need to add both the requirement of having a totem down and consuming it to work.

12/05/2010 11:52 AMPosted by Rouncer
Fire Nova doesn't work because it is a short cooldown point blank AoE centered around a pre-positioned totem. Melee AoE and melee dps in general are all about getting and staying in melee range of whatever we are attacking. Fire Nova just doesn't fit with that philosophy.


Wrong again. You are describing MAGMA TOTEM. Fire Nova only has the requirement that you be in melee range for a split second to drop any fire totem. Having to use Magma as a setup to Fire Nova and spending 2.5 sec is an annoyance, but it is FAR from being difficult or impossible the way you keep making it out to seem.

The problem with our aoe is not Fire Nova, it's the extra step to get there via Magma, and the low damage for a 10 sec instant aoe that is supposed to address burst/mobility. If Fire Nova gets a buff to damage so it equals about 5 magma ticks, you will have much better frontload aoe damage and won't have to worry if the aoe pack will die or move soon after.

----------------------------------

Stop pushing for more damage on magma and removing Fire Nova (or making it some lame, long cd)......

Hunters want more Multi Shot dmg, not to remove it and rely solely on Trap.
Ret wants more Divine Storm damage, not to remove it and rely solely on Consecrate.
Enhance wants more Fire Nova damage, and more convenience....NOT remove and rely on just Magma totem, or still rely on magma to use FN.

Your problem is with the setup and extra cd via magma or the damage it does for the talents/cd spent......FN as an instant AOE ability is perfectly fine it just needs to be tweaked to be as easy to use as other classes similar "instant aoe" abilities.....ie not require a totem.

-------------------------------

Gonna throw this idea out again:

"Molten Shock"

15yd AOE Fire damage, followed by 2-3 ticks of periodic fire damage. 6 sec cd shared with shocks. Remove Magma totem since FN provides both instant and periodic dmg.

or

15yd AOE Fire damage. Shares shock cd. Magma still exists for stationary fights along with FN.

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90 Blood Elf Paladin
0
As I said before

Whirlwind: 10 sec CD, 65% weapon damage to all targets within 8 yards.

Swipe (Cat): 45 energy, 335% weapon damage.

Fan of Knives: 35 energy, 80% of thrown weapon damage (really?!), 8 yards

Divine Storm: 80% of weapon damage, shares CD with Crusader Strike, Heals.

Enhancement: Spell Damage based on a fixed number, scales with spellpower. (both magma and FN do this)


Can anyone guess what happens when you make a melee spec a "special flower" and have their AoE work completely different than anyone elses? IT DOESN'T WORK.
Enhance needs Improved Fire Nova to die in a fire and the searing flames improved lava lash to get streamlined so a new AoE mechanic can get put in. "Storm's Fury" or some equally cool name that has you do a double handed attack to everything in the 8 yard radius and shares a CD with Stormstrike or lava lash. Make weapon damage matter again.

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85 Goblin Shaman
4615
I hate enhance AOE as well. I dont bother trying and removed fire nova from my bar a long time ago.
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90 Draenei Shaman
13090
12/05/2010 10:26 AMPosted by Lorelei

What makes AoE fun in the other specs? If you could pinpoint that, then that might lead to some more productive feedback (not to say that your current feedback isn't productive). Personally I prefer Enhancement AoE to hunter AoE, but that very well could be that I don't play enhancement as much so it seems different. It would be useful to me to see exactly what attracts you to other AoE mechanisms.


Other AoE mechanics are more fun because they flow. They are either effective or easy to use, or both. Straightforwardness is good in AoE.

Death Knight
Frost - Huge numbers from spamming one target based AoE. Easy to use.
Unholy - Huge numbers from an AoE set that "flows" very well and doesn't require you to leave your main target or interrupt your melee for placement. It's among the most involved AoE sets, but it works because of how smooth it feels.

Druid
Feral - One boring button to press, but at least it's easy to use and effective
Balance - Starfall. That's all that needs to be said here.

Hunter
Survival - Explosive + Serpent Spread is fun, it's easy to use, it doesn't require difficult decision making, and it fits the class well. I can't speak for BM, but for Marks, more Multis in place of more powerful ones is fine as well.

Warlock
Demonology - Hellfire while moving + Immolation Aura + Felstorm = most fun AoE in this game.
Affliction - Soulburn Seed of Corruption is similar to Serpent Spread, very effective even if you don't think it's extremely engaging gameplay.
Destruction - Rain of Fire, boring but effective. Shadowfury is fun as well while moving.

Mage
Fire - Living Bombs + Combustion + Impact + Blast Wave + Flamestrike, among the more interesting AoE packages out there.
Frost - Blizzard, boring but effective
Arcane - Arcane Explosion, boring but effective

Priest
Mind Sear or Holy Nova depending on the situation, while Mind Sear's numbers could probably use a boost, its mechanics are effective if not exciting.

Warrior
Blood and Thunder, Bladestorm, Cleave, Whirlwind.. all easy to use and effective

Paladin
Can't speak for them as much, honestly, my experience actually using it is very limited, but Divine Storm vs Crusader Strike in an AoE situation can't be a hard choice to make.

Shaman
Elemental - Earthquake might need a buff, but the mechanics here work for a caster. Thunderstorm also hits really hard for an AoE, and Chain Lightning is a fun ability.

Enhancement - Chain Lightning is, as I said, fun to use. It's not as easy to use as Enhance as it "requires" Maelstrom stacks (unless you want to hard cast, which doesn't really fit Enhance), but I have no complaints about it.

Magma Totem being such short range and the damaging ticks resetting on cast is a problem. The numbers don't reward you enough for how annoying it can be to set in a good place. Effectively placing Magma can mean you have to leave your melee target, thereby losing potential Maelstrom procs and melee damage, which usually makes it a damage loss to bother doing. So you pretty much have to pray that the mobs you're fighting are brought close and don't move. That coupled with the fact that delaying your single target abilities will almost always result in a damage loss as well means that the only time it's worth placing is when there are a lot of adds that are going to live for the majority of the totem's life and stay in range of it the entire time (ie. Onyxia's Whelps.)

Fire Nova is the most horrid spell there is. Its damage is low, its reliance on a specific stationary totem that you can't directly control the placement of is incredibly annoying, its range is horrid (you can waste a glyph slot on it to make it slightly less horrid range.. but still horrid), it requires 4 talent points to bring to full power, and using it over any of your single target abilities, even in fairly large AoE situations, will probably result in a damage loss.

There really is nothing fun about FN + MT. Nothing. They are horrible mechanics, and I will not be using them at 85 because of how bad they are, both in the fun and the effectiveness departments. They are very difficult to justify using in any situation. The thought that goes through my head whenever an AoE situation arises is simple... "why bother?"
Edited by Ashunera on 12/5/2010 8:29 PM PST
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