Enhancement AoE

49 Human Warlock
700
12/05/2010 8:13 PMPosted by Tokenelfpali
Can anyone guess what happens when you make a melee spec a "special flower" and have their AoE work completely different than anyone elses? IT DOESN'T WORK.
Enhance needs Improved Fire Nova to die in a fire and the searing flames improved lava lash to get streamlined so a new AoE mechanic can get put in. "Storm's Fury" or some equally cool name that has you do a double handed attack to everything in the 8 yard radius and shares a CD with Stormstrike or lava lash. Make weapon damage matter again.


I do agree with the direction you want to take it, as well as your point about it not relying on AP or Weapon damage enough.

If I had to choose between one extreme or the other, that is "Periodic" or "Instant" AOE.....it would be Instant for sure, but preferably with some lingering AOE dot. I would be fine with any type of "instant" damage....thru a cleave, point blank aoe, or shock aoe.....as long as there is also some way to get periodic damage....either as a result of using the instant damage, or thru magma totem.

Fan of Knives is Burst "instant damage", but it also has periodic damage thru the aoe application of poisons which will tick and sustain dps between his FoK usage. The same can be said about:
-DK's Howling blast and diseases
-Warrs Whirlwind and bleeds
-Ret's Divine Storm and Consecrate
-Enh Fire Nova and magma?

That's why I think the whole "Molten Shock" idea is cool with "Instant aoe" fire damage along with some periodic aoe ticks to sustain DPS until we cast Molten Shock again.
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85 Draenei Shaman
12025
I've said numerous times throughout Beta that I would not be touching Enhancement AoE in its present form with a 10 foot pole. The interaction between Magma Totem and Fire Nova is atrocious. Could you imagine if you could only Arcane Explosion on top of a Flame Strike as a Mage? Or if you could only Divine Storm on top of a Consecrate as a Paladin? No one who played those classes would ever settle for gameplay like that, and neither should Enhancement.

Chain Lightning Spam as MW permits. I'll leave the AoEing to all of the other classes that don't have to constantly reposition their stationary totem before they can cast their AoE spells and abilities.

Frankly, I wouldn't mind at all if they completely killed either Fire Nova or Magma Totem, or both of them in favor of something else. What about Thralls 'Lightning Whirl' that he used in his duel against Garrosh? Dropping Fire Nova and double Magma Totem damage/cut its pulse rate in half as enhance? Linking Fire Nova to shock CDs instead? Just do something please.
Edited by Hothgor on 12/5/2010 8:41 PM PST
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49 Human Warlock
700
12/05/2010 8:26 PMPosted by Ashunera
There really is nothing fun about FN + MT. Nothing. They are horrible mechanics, and I will not be using them at 85 because of how bad they are, both in the fun and the effectiveness departments. They are very difficult to justify using in any situation. The thought that goes through my head whenever an AoE situation arises is simple... "why bother?"


Yes, the current implementation is not fun.

1. What is our "signature" or "go to" AOE??

Half the people think its magma, the other Fire Nova. In order to get somewhere, we gotta figure this out first. I will answer this question for you and tell you right now it should be Fire Nova as our Primary AOE.....and Magma as our secondary AOE that we use to squeeze out extra DPS on stationary fights. Just think of Multi shot as the convenient aoe, and immo trap as the one you use when you know you will be sitting in one place for 20+ sec.

2. What is the problem with our "Signature" AOE?

It's not convenient at all compared to other melee aoe.

-It requires extra gcds, and usually our secondary aoe to work properly.
-Very Low damage* for the time and talents put into it.

*Fire nova at 10 sec cd does not equal 5 ticks of magma, or 4, or even 3. It barely does 2 ticks of magma even though it requires much more thought....it needs buffs.

3. So can our "Primary" AOE work in it's current function?

No. It's annoying and unrewarding. While it's not impossible to get Fire Nova off, it takes twice as long as other classes for half the damage...plus it requires our "secondary aoe" to set it up.

They need to make Fire Nova, or some version of it, just as easy or accessible as other melee type AOEs. Make it easy to access, and restrict with a cd, resource, or linked to important single target ability.

4. Is there a problem with our "Secondary" AOE?

No. Magma works perfectly fine for what it was designed to.....longer, stationary fights. You set and forget it, and can do a total single target rotation. It's clutch. It could use faster ticks or bigger radius, but that's it. It's an addition to get max dps for aoe encounters, not a "go to" ability.

--------------------------------------------------

Edit:


Chain Lightning Spam as MW permits. I'll leave the AoEing to all of the other classes that don't have to constantly reposition their stationary totem before they can cast their AoE spells and abilities.


Honestly, I view Chain Lightning as a "Cleave" not an "AOE". You switch to CL as soon as you have 2+ targets, you may not drop magma or FN until you have 4-5 targets. It's just like a warrior with his cleave vs whirlwind.


Frankly, I wouldn't mind at all if they completely killed either Fire Nova or Magma Totem, or both of them in favor of something else.


Take the best each had to offer...."instant burst" and "quick, periodic" damage and combine them into one strong aoe ability, restricted from single target by shock cd.

"Molten Shock"
15yd range
Hits target and anyone within 10yds of them for AOE Fire damage, and applying a dot that ticks 2-3 times afterwards for fire damage.


You would be hitting this every 6 sec instead of your Earth shock when you have 4+ targets in an AOE scenario. It would give you nice instant burst damage, along with some periodic ticks.

The other version is just the instant burst aoe damage, and it DROPS a magma totem at the foot of your targeted enemy.
Edited by Lunescar on 12/5/2010 9:00 PM PST
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85 Dwarf Shaman
5885
12/05/2010 8:39 PMPosted by Hothgor
I've said numerous times throughout Beta that I would not be touching Enhancement AoE in its present form with a 10 foot pole. The interaction between Magma Totem and Fire Nova is atrocious. Could you imagine if you could only Arcane Explosion on top of a Flame Strike as a Mage? Or if you could only Divine Storm on top of a Consecrate as a Paladin? No one who played those classes would ever settle for gameplay like that, and neither should Enhancement.

Chain Lightning Spam as MW permits. I'll leave the AoEing to all of the other classes that don't have to constantly reposition their stationary totem before they can cast their AoE spells and abilities.

Frankly, I wouldn't mind at all if they completely killed either Fire Nova or Magma Totem, or both of them in favor of something else. What about Thralls 'Lightning Whirl' that he used in his duel against Garrosh? Dropping Fire Nova and double Magma Totem damage/cut its pulse rate in half as enhance? Linking Fire Nova to shock CDs instead? Just do something please.



You hit it right on the head. Why do we have to use two expensive, low-power abilities to generate a single weak AoE? It wouldn't even be that bad if one or the other worked really well, but both combined don't equal a single decent AoE. Truthfully, if mages could only AoE on top of frost nova, the problem would've been addressed ages ago. There have been a boatload of good suggestions in the forum, and if Blizz chose to implement any of them I'd be content, because they are all much better than what we have now. I'm flexible. I'll use almost any mechanic that works - hell, I hate the searing flames mechanic with a passion, but when the totem actually targets properly it works well, so I use it. MT + SN is a horrible mechanic AND it doesn't really work.
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85 Dwarf Shaman
5885
12/05/2010 8:34 PMPosted by Lunescar
12/05/2010 8:13 PMPosted by Tokenelfpali
Can anyone guess what happens when you make a melee spec a "special flower" and have their AoE work completely different than anyone elses? IT DOESN'T WORK.
Enhance needs Improved Fire Nova to die in a fire and the searing flames improved lava lash to get streamlined so a new AoE mechanic can get put in. "Storm's Fury" or some equally cool name that has you do a double handed attack to everything in the 8 yard radius and shares a CD with Stormstrike or lava lash. Make weapon damage matter again.


I do agree with the direction you want to take it, as well as your point about it not relying on AP or Weapon damage enough.

If I had to choose between one extreme or the other, that is "Periodic" or "Instant" AOE.....it would be Instant for sure, but preferably with some lingering AOE dot. I would be fine with any type of "instant" damage....thru a cleave, point blank aoe, or shock aoe.....as long as there is also some way to get periodic damage....either as a result of using the instant damage, or thru magma totem.

Fan of Knives is Burst "instant damage", but it also has periodic damage thru the aoe application of poisons which will tick and sustain dps between his FoK usage. The same can be said about:
-DK's Howling blast and diseases
-Warrs Whirlwind and bleeds
-Ret's Divine Storm and Consecrate
-Enh Fire Nova and magma?

That's why I think the whole "Molten Shock" idea is cool with "Instant aoe" fire damage along with some periodic aoe ticks to sustain DPS until we cast Molten Shock again.



The rogue and warrior AoEs are better examples as they are one ability with a burst followed by a small aftereffect. If we could drop a totem like the old fire nova totem, and it exploded for a significant burst then left a lingering AoE, I wouldn't have a problem with that at all.

What we have now is two separate abilities which are linked together but you still have to manage both. You have to use one with the other both due to mechanics AND due to the fact they are both so laughably bad individually. Unfortunately, even together they are laughably bad, just not as bad.
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85 Draenei Shaman
6640
I haven't used magma/FN since 4.0, and pretty much only use CL in a multi-target situation in dungeons.

I also don't plan on using magma/FN anytime in the future because it is clunky and weak, I'd rather just have my searing totem stacking for better single target while throwing CLs of opportunity.
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85 Goblin Shaman
5950
Honestly I think we need a signature melee based AoE attack that is enhancement only. MT/FN is I say Shaman's generic AoE combo. Like any other AoE ability class ability that all specs share.

My idea for an attack for AoE that is purely Enhancement is

Lightning Strikes (rank 1) - Channel the speed of lightning to instantly strike all enemies within 8 yards. Dealing 75% weapon damage with both weapons and dealing 150 nature damage.

22% of base mana, Instant cast, 10 sec cooldown
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90 Tauren Shaman
12680
All Enhancement needs is the changes I suggested in another post in this forum, in regards to AoE:

A new melee cleave spell that has a shared CD with LL.
A new baseline AoE Shock spell that has a shared CD with all other Shocks.
Fire Nova removed.
Edited by Matuk on 12/6/2010 5:19 PM PST
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90 Worgen Warlock
7885
hello
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85 Goblin Shaman
5950
I do not agree with AoE spells that share cool downs with our main single target abilities.

Many other classes that have AoE abilities (unless the attack is channeled) do not lose their primary single target abilities to make their AoE abilities.

That is like telling a warrior that suddenly that their Cleave attack shared a CD with their Heroic Strike. Since in AoE situations between CD of Cleave and Whirlwind I am using single target attacks. Our AoE abilities need to be separate CDs from our primary single target affects but adjusted so like any other AoE attack that using it on a single target is a waste of mana, a GCD and not a DPS increase in any shape or form.

Why should Enh Shamans have to sacrifice their hardest hitting single target CD just to gain a tool to attempt to be competent in an AoE situation.
Edited by Hamavet on 12/6/2010 6:34 PM PST
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90 Tauren Shaman
12680
12/06/2010 6:33 PMPosted by Hamavet
I do not agree with AoE spells that share cool downs with our main single target abilities.

Many other classes that have AoE abilities (unless the attack is channeled) do not lose their primary single target abilities to make their AoE abilities.

That is like telling a warrior that suddenly that their Cleave attack shared a CD with their Heroic Strike. Since in AoE situations between CD of Cleave and Whirlwind I am using single target attacks. Our AoE abilities need to be separate CDs from our primary single target affects but adjusted so like any other AoE attack that using it on a single target is a waste of mana, a GCD and not a DPS increase in any shape or form.

Why should Enh Shamans have to sacrifice their hardest hitting single target CD just to gain a tool to attempt to be competent in an AoE situation.

Because they have explicitly told us that they don't want us to use AoE tools in single-target situations, which has been a PLAGUE upon Enhancement for all of the Wrath expansion.

You either AoE, or you single-target, not both. It shouldn't take more than a monkey to be able to think through which tool to use for which situation.
Edited by Matuk on 12/6/2010 6:36 PM PST
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90 Tauren Shaman
12680
12/06/2010 6:50 PMPosted by Bolognadoom
Actually, assuming you're still using Fire Elemental, keep Fire Nova on those bars.

Fire Ele is, usually, a DPS loss for Enhancement.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
14370
12/06/2010 6:33 PMPosted by Hamavet
I do not agree with AoE spells that share cool downs with our main single target abilities.

Many other classes that have AoE abilities (unless the attack is channeled) do not lose their primary single target abilities to make their AoE abilities.

That is like telling a warrior that suddenly that their Cleave attack shared a CD with their Heroic Strike.

Enhancement isn't limited by mana in the same way that warriors are limited by rage. Traditionally, we have been limited by our cooldowns, instead.
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85 Draenei Shaman
9805
I too have been saying that I'm not going to use Enhancement's AoE mechanics in Cataclysm.

I don't like having to analyze the specific circumstances of each AoE situation to determine whether or not I AoE. IE - How long is the AoE going to last? Is there going to be movement? Is the damage I'm going to deal worth the additional hoops to set up my AoE?

When I'm playing some other class, there's no questionnaire. I hit my AoE buttons and that's that. If the developers think that situation sucks, then other classes need to start getting the questionnaire. But the only other spec that really had anything like that - Ret Paladins with DS affected by Holy Power - got that reverted, so that tells me they don't think that situation sucks. Which begs the question.. Why can't I have that instead too?

Bottom line - Enhancement's AoE is terrible and lackluster, I'm not going to use it, and god please change it.
Edited by Raganrok on 12/6/2010 9:36 PM PST
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25 Troll Hunter
100
You are overstating the "convenience" other classes have in deploying their AoE. A simple example is Frost Mage. Flame Strike has to wait until the tank has settled the pull, and Blizzard is a fixed position channeled spell that becomes worthless if the fight moves.

You have the EXACT same setup problems for your AoE that many other DPS classes do. The situations that are ideal for a Frost Mage are also ideal for an enhancement shaman. Those that suck for a Frost Mage suck for an enhancement shaman.

BUT, you are also a special snowflake in that you can actually do all your other attacks in between Fire Nova cooldowns. And Magma pulses all on its on.

What I hear is, "QQ. I want my AoE to be a part of my single target rotation."

Well it is now Patch 4.0 and beyond. You have to rub some brain cells together in deciding between AoE and single target.

It is fine. L2Play.
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90 Orc Shaman
18470
Sure, except the mage can just stop their channel and move to whereever the tank moves the mob too and if it is continuous motion they can head up to be with the melee and arcane explosion to their heart's content.

You want a real comparison? First, flamestrike changes to an instant cast for fire mages. Sounds good, right? Except that flamestrike can now only be cast at the mage's feet. Also fire mages can only cast Living Bomb on mobs standing in the area affected by their flamestrike. That's pretty much what we got and I'd happily trade our AoE mechanics for that of ANY other dps spec.
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25 Troll Hunter
100
Except that flamestrike can now only be cast at the mage's feet.


Except that enhancement shaman are supposed to be in melee range so they do not have to disrupt their normal positioning to drop their AoE at their feet.

Frost can stop Blizzard and recast? Enhance can move with the mob, attacking all the time, then restomp Magma.

We can keep going back and forth on this. But the reality is enhancement AoE is very simple to deploy, can be done with the normal positioning the class is expected to take, and does little to interrupt the flow of their normal single target attacks.

Its not like we are GCD locked anymore. Plenty of time to do what little has to be done for effective AoE.

I find the switch between single target and AoE mode to be engaging, interesting and effective for most AoE encounters.

If you want to argue numbers, fair enough. But remember that as soon as Magma and FN become powerful enough to use in cleave situations, they become powerful enough to use as part of the single target rotation. That means nerfs to the other attacks, like SS, and LL.

You should ask the developers what is the intended mob size for effective enhancment shaman AoE. If it is, say , five+ mobs, then you can monitor performance and provide feedback.

I see a bunch of wannabe-developers mad because their version of AoE is not implemented for the class. Show me that the current implementation does not work or is not fun for multi-mob pulls. I think it is fine and fits the class well.

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90 Orc Shaman
18470
12/07/2010 3:27 PMPosted by Panazonik
I see a bunch of wannabe-developers mad because their version of AoE is not implemented for the class. Show me that the current implementation does not work or is not fun for multi-mob pulls. I think it is fine and fits the class well.


I see someone who doesn't really understand what we are all complaining about. Magma totem is fine, Fire nova is the spell that I hate. It is anything but fun and I hate it more and more every single time I use it. It is one of the worst spells Blizzard has ever implemented for any class and for any purpose. I would gladly trade it for sentry totem in a heartbeat.
Edited by Rouncer on 12/7/2010 6:15 PM PST
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