Realm Best CM titles

90 Troll Warlock
10720
Repost from Original Blizzard thread:

This, this right here. I don't understand Blizzard's policy towards player's freedom to "play the game as they please and feel rewarded". By removing titles (don't really care about removing the gear) they reafirm that the only existing end-game is either Raid or PvP.

I have spent MORE time waiting on cooldowns on CM's than raiding this expansion. Challenge modes have been more important for me and kept me from subbing out, eventually getting so interested to get a group going for realm times and later regional times.

This is a big slap in the face to those people who spent countless hours discussing strats, grinding specific gear drops on LFR(etards) and spending real money to transfer to a server where they happen to find people interested enough in an aspect of the game that already has a very little crowd, to get times.

The posts on this thread are 95% against this change, and if Blizzard really listens to their people, if they REALLY give some importance to player feedback, the titles should not get removed
90 Pandaren Shaman
16565
04/02/2014 08:09 PMPosted by Rainbowmezx
The titles were initially put in the game to entice players to delve into challenge modes more. They weren't very popular, and they still probably aren't because of their inherent difficulty. But that was always the intention - they were supposed to be an elite challenge for players that wanted to be considered elite. This was supposed to be the content in the game that was never supposed to get nerfed. Mastering content like this, to the point where you are the best your realm has to offer, deserves something more than a feat of strength.


Removing the titles is going to make challenge modes less popular than they are now. Right now the only incentive to go past gold is to get the feat of strength. After that, there's no replay value. To quote WatcherDev's tweet:

"The problem there is how the precedent would affect behavior in WoD in a fresh CM season."

As of now they are setting the precedent that we should only go as far as getting the realm best time once for the feat of strength (if you care about having an achievement you have no way of physically displaying), because nothing more will be permanent in the long run.
90 Troll Priest
11070
Watcher's replies on Twitter (https://twitter.com/WatcherDev/status/451428809896497152 ) are disappointing.

1) Titles would become ''meaningless'' once unobtainable. That's just false. Many of the locked titles carry more prestige precisely because they are attached to a feat no longer possible to accomplish. If anything, still being able to earn a title such as ''Herald of the Titans'', with all the classes and talents tweaks that went through (read: buffs), devalues it. But that's also only one side of the coin. Some titles just happen to sound really cool. I'm always a bit jelly to see someone titled ''the Immortal'' (how awesome is that!), but I also think it wouldn't be right to introduce a new way to earn it nor to remove it. I'm sad to see ''Defender of the Wall'' and ''Stormbrewer'' go away, they definitely are amongst my favorites of all the titles in the game.

2) There is a fallacy in implying that losing a title over a patch and to a group is the same. The former is arbitrary and out of the player's hands, while the latter is the result of healthy realm competition (which appears to be something Blizzard wanted by introducing the titles in the first place). There are groups that fight (or fought, or planned on fighting) for those titles in the event they'd be able to keep them, because hey, awesome titles are awesome. So instead of encouraging this competition, which would be a logical thing to do in order to make more players interested in Challenge Modes, we're getting told we won't get to keep one of the coolest rewards this game has to offer.

Please reconsider.
90 Pandaren Shaman
16565
04/02/2014 09:11 PMPosted by Bouleau
Watcher's replies on Twitter (https://twitter.com/WatcherDev/status/451428809896497152 ) are disappointing.
Edited by Lights on 4/2/2014 9:15 PM PDT
90 Tauren Druid
12755
IMO, if you earned a realm best title you should keep it. Despite what the dev said, it does have meaning. They are wrong on this decision.
90 Worgen Druid
15975
04/02/2014 04:40 PMPosted by Ggz
this is total BS. Me & a few friends have worked so so so hard to get several titles & keep them & now you say we lose them? all our hard work gone?? Totally and utterly unacceptable. Sadly this wont get much attention at all.. as well the people who have the titles are very few. But this is by far one of the worst things blizzard has done.

So so so stupid.

Gg blizz Gg...


Support for this awesome hunter, who has worked hard for his titles on my server.
I personally do not hold any titles (I just recently got into doing CMs) but, these people have earned and deserve to keep their titles.

This is utter nonsense what Blizzard is doing.
Stop trying to feel bad for all the bad players who cannot accomplish anything in this game and let people who enjoy being the best to strive for it. The people who are dedicated and push for these challenges are the kind of players who are going to stick around in the long run. Not the ADHD lfr specialful players who want all da loots and epics.

Stop punishing the hard working players.
90 Orc Hunter
13700
If the titles do not stay I will be pretty appalled as I worked hard to get US ranked times in several instances and can not see why my work shouldn't be rewarded. As an end game player who has hit all the bases I feel that I and many of these great people deserve the titles to prove their salt.

That is all.
Game Designer
Thanks for all the feedback, and I understand that while much of the news was positive, most of the people who have worked tremendously hard for the realm-best titles are justifiably upset that they will not be permanent.

The realm-best titles were added with little fanfare in Patch 5.4. It's possible that they were a flawed idea in their conception, but the hope was to foster a bit of competition within individual servers, and to encourage people who had long since finished up their Gold medal collection to revisit the dungeons and try to dethrone the current champs. The titles were by nature transitory, where any day you might log in and discover that someone had beaten your time, and that you'd lost the title. We added Feats of Strength, which were permanent, to recognize and commemorate the fact that you held the title for a time. These Feats of Strength remain among the rarest in the game.

If we'd wanted to add a fixed Platinum Medal tier with additional rewards, we could have done that, but the point was to encourage friendly competition against people you see standing around town on a regular basis. We're also aware that while essentially any class composition can get all Golds, balance breaks down at the extreme high end of the spectrum, and we wouldn't want to set a formal benchmark that some groups couldn't reach even with expert play.

Looking ahead to Warlords, we were left with the open question of how to handle the realm-best titles once the current set of Challenge Modes ceased to be available. By default, if we kept the titles as-is, the final players who held them on the day the servers went down for patch 6.0 maintenance would have kept them. Unless they ever transferred servers. Or unless their realm got connected with another realm with faster record times. This is because by definition, the titles are tied to a specific realm, and were always meant to be. Keeping the titles around with that level of inconsistency and uncertainty was not an acceptable outcome in our eyes.

We considered an alternate option of letting all players who have the Feat of Strength for ever holding a best time, however briefly, permanently keep the title associated with that dungeon. The major downside there, as I noted on Twitter, would be the precedent it would have set going into the next Challenge Mode season. Should the first group on a server to get a Gold Medal in the Shadowmoon Burial Grounds (one of our upcoming dungeons), the first week of the expansion, earn a permanent title, while another group a few weeks later that clears the dungeon four minutes faster (but not a new record at the time) does not get that same reward because they waited too long to stake their claim? We also do not want to encourage groups to seek out less competitive servers just to grab best times and thus permanent titles.

The groups that set records this time around will surely be top contenders in the Challenge Mode season, and you do have a unique Feat of Strength to record your accomplishment in Mists. That said, we clearly should have settled these questions sooner, so as to better set expectations.
Edited by Watcher on 4/2/2014 10:17 PM PDT
MVP - Technical Support
90 Human Warrior
18620
The remaining question now, is this the plan going forward as well? Do we go into WoD with our expectations set that the titles will always be temp and holding them in WoD is only going to last as long as WoD does? Or are there plans for a better system, similar to pvp seasons?
Edited by Omegal on 4/2/2014 10:20 PM PDT
90 Troll Hunter
6900
So TL;DR means no titles if you hold the titles when 6.0 comes out? !@#$ I just farmed 300 darkwater potions for our group to do the last ones we needed for cool titles.
90 Pandaren Shaman
16565
04/02/2014 10:13 PMPosted by Watcher
The groups that set records this time around will surely be top contenders in the Challenge Mode season, and you do have a unique Feat of Strength to record your accomplishment in Mists. That said, we clearly should have settled these questions sooner, so as to better set expectations.


No, we won't. At least the majority of us. In the end, there is no real incentive for us to go past gold aside from mere feats that most of us don't actually care about. We will not be replaying your challenge modes over and over because in the end we keep nothing from it. If you removed rank one titles, what would be the incentive of going past glad rating? I'd just sit there for the rest of the season knowing my title is secured and work on alts.
90 Pandaren Shaman
16565
04/02/2014 10:18 PMPosted by Omegal
The remaining question now, is this the plan going forward as well? Do we go into WoD with our expectations set that the titles will always be temp and holding them in WoD is only going to last as long as WoD does? Or are there plans for a better system, similar to pvp seasons?


Going by Watcher's tweet, this is setting the precedent for the way they are handling them in the future. And this is going to vastly reduce competition.
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
15120
I'm sorry, but as a loyal blizzard customer, that is just not good enough.

We do not care about the feat. Everyone who has done a set of golds will have CM feats. But for our countless hours of hard work, the TINY carrot we got for being such hard workers is being removed for absolutely no reason.

You once again state that we could "lose them any day to other players", that is healthy competition and I welcome the challenge to take them back as the time window closes. That is exactly what my group has been doing for weeks with other people on our server.

This is not a situation where "we could've, should've, would've" works. This is a serious wound to the fragile community of challenge modes. One that the competition side will not recover from. There is NO reason to push times in the next expansion, nor in this one. Players will not aim for 8 minute Scholomances, they will aim for 18.5 minute Scholomances.

Handle THIS season of CMs differently if you must, but if you remove these titles then you have done irreparable harm to a wonderful part of the game that many of us enjoy. Change how it works for WoD, but do so preemptively. So at least I know I'm not going to even bother before I go forward with securing the time of 8 incredibly dedicated players looking forward to working through these. But it's WAY too late to start taking these back for this expansion. We have them, I still have purified defender next to my name, no one has beaten my times; I EARNED this title.

I don't know how you would work around the server merges, but then I'm not the game developer. That's your problem. My problem is that I have hours of my time I now consider wasted.
90 Troll Druid
16005
Why would anybody push for the best challenge mode times in a new season if they're aware that their titles - the main proof of their efforts in pushing for those times - are going to be taken away from them when the next expansion launches? Gladiators keep a mount if they performed well, but challenge mode players will keep nothing representing their above and beyond gold times.

There won't be the competition involved that you guys are expecting, sadly. It's silly to think otherwise if there is no incentive.

I'd also like to note that your original comments on Twitter about the matter, Watcher, contained what would have been a much more fair solution to the problem considering the connecting realm introduction. Let the titles be exclusive to the top times through the entire expansion, but then open them up to everybody who had the feat when the expansion ends - it lets those who took the effort to get the time show it off without being unfair to anybody who tried to snatch them away.
Edited by Masakins on 4/2/2014 10:35 PM PDT
90 Pandaren Shaman
16565
04/02/2014 10:27 PMPosted by Cryoxene
I don't know how you would work around the server merges, but then I'm not the game developer. That's your problem. My problem is that I have hours of my time I now consider wasted.
90 Human Priest
18700
A truly disappointing, but typical response from Blizzard. There are so many potential alternatives to be explored - this comes off as pure laziness.
Edited by Amity on 4/2/2014 10:43 PM PDT
90 Human Warlock
21295
04/02/2014 10:13 PMPosted by Watcher
Thanks for all the feedback, and I understand that while much of the news was positive, most of the people who have worked tremendously hard for the realm-best titles are justifiably upset that they will not be permanent.


Last I checked, almost all of the feedback is in fact negative in regards to the way in which the removal of the realm best titles is being handled. In a couple minutes time I came up with plenty of reasonable alternatives that could be implemented instead of flat out removing these titles, and I'm sure many others did as well because there are so many better ways to handle this. People being paid to do this as their job couldn't come up with anything other than having to fully remove the titles? I find that hard to believe unless this is the result of pure laziness, or unless we are soon to be told how "it would take away from resources being spent better elsewhere" (...waiting for it).

The only positive feedback from any of this was that people could now obtain all four unique mounts.
90 Night Elf Hunter
18230
04/02/2014 10:13 PMPosted by Watcher

The groups that set records this time around will surely be top contenders in the Challenge Mode season, and you do have a unique Feat of Strength to record your accomplishment in Mists. That said, we clearly should have settled these questions sooner, so as to better set expectations.


Why bother contending over temporary titles? I'll get my golds and be done with it in WoD.

Good job making the content complete-and-forget when it didn't have to be. You guys always say that you can't provide content fast enough so maybe you should stop cutting down the appeal of what you have already produced.
90 Troll Rogue
21090
04/02/2014 10:27 PMPosted by Cryoxene
I still have purified defender next to my name, no one has beaten my times; I EARNED this title.

No offense but I think you are a decent illustration of the problem with realm best titles. Looking at US rankings your time isn't particularly special, WoWProgress has it recorded as the 433rd best Shado-Pan Monastery run in the US. Obviously that number in inflated by multiple runs from other groups but there are multiple realms with several groups faster than your time. Why should you get a title for simply being on a lower population realm?

Beyond that your time isn't even the fastest time on your realm, your time is the realm fastest time because in the 11 months since the best time was set down 2 players in the realm first group left the server so they no longer count. This is exactly the issue Watcher was talking about above, linking things tightly to a server creates inconsistencies when players server transfer.

If Blizzard were to keep the titles in a realm based system makes zero sense. A top 0.5% (or some similar appropriate number) as Nezyo suggested with some logic to handle multiple runs would be far fairer.
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