Realm Best CM titles

95 Troll Priest
15355
I think the realm titles should be kept by people who earned them. Going into WoD I feel the best way to handle server first titles would be to exactly how they were introduced. Dont have the titles at release but rather introduce them a patch or two in. That way people have time to experience them and give everyone an evening playing field into learning the CMs.
100 Blood Elf Death Knight
15730
And what if they've done that at 11:59 PM on Monday before WoD hits?


CMs don't work like that.

You cannot just "plan" to be done like that.

My group would be spending the final hours before WoD pushing our own times lower. I'd fully expect people to do the same. If they got lucky and ended up with a run like that, then oh well, I lost ONE title to worthy competitors. While they worked on taking that, I worked on securing a different one.
90 Pandaren Shaman
17240
04/02/2014 11:44 PMPosted by Cryoxene
•Wrathion will once again ask the heroes of Azeroth to embark on an expansion-long quest, culminating in the reward of a Legendary item. First players must reach Draenor and help to guide Anduin through his formative years, teaching him how to talk to girls, how to tie a tie, etc. This process takes approximately 4-5 years, but could extend well into his 20’s depending on how much he resents you. You’ll then graciously enter into the Arenas and attain a rating of 2200 or higher. Wrathion will then send level-100 players on an epic quest to collect 60 small knickknacks from Normal Dungeon bosses. These are just for Wrathion’s small curio collection. You’ll then be asked to go on a whirlwind tour of Azeroth and defeat every Battle Pet trainer—we hope you’ve been practicing! Then you need to get 3,000 Valor; unfortunately Valor might not really be a thing anymore, so he wishes you good luck with that. After that point, though, it’s just a short skip and a jump of beating every Raid boss in the expansion 12 times, on separate lockouts, to prove your worth to wear the ultimate prize, a Legendary T-shirt and the Achievement “I Helped Wrathion and All I Got Was This Lousy Shirt”.


Between all the consumable farming, the strategy formulating, the dozens of videos we've watched, the hundreds of gear runs we've done, the leaderboard watching, the gold we've dropped re-optimizing, the time we spent finding players to run them, and not to mention the hours upon hours of actually wiping in CMs... This is exactly how it feels after being told all we'll have to show our hard work is a feat of strength among the rest of the CM feats of strength.


Holy crap most accurate analogy ever
100 Draenei Paladin
15160
04/02/2014 11:51 PMPosted by Cryoxene
CMs don't work like that.

You cannot just "plan" to be done like that.


What do you mean? I can't plan to be logged in at about 11 and try? I'm not saying people would be done exactly at 11:59, as that obviously is an extreme example.

What I mean is the very real possibility that someone can snag a title from you without you ever having the chance of getting it back.

And I meant that to explain, once again, that the titles are temporary, meaning they could be taken away at any time with no recourse from you. And that applies to every single title.

Does it suck to lose them? Sure it does, I appreciate that, I'm not oblivious to the amount of work people put into them. But the people who put in the time should have expected to lose them in the first place.
90 Undead Warrior
18120
If "Jimmy Does it First" getting the feat and title right away is such an issue just introduce the titles a patch or two later if you continue to use the same system.

Those who want the competition will do it before hand to ensure they're the ones with the titles right away and to lock people out from getting them.

Or you can move away from this outdated notion of "realm play" when so many realms are imbalanced and dead.
These kind of things never end well in these regards.
100 Blood Elf Paladin
17545
I am well aware that the chance my post is going to be read by anyone that matters -- and considered seriously -- is very low; but let this be a testament to my passion regarding the topic.

I am absolutely disgusted with this display of disregard for the time and effort invested by players. Some of us have spent hundreds of hours farming gear, consumables, re-rolling classes and creating strategies to not only get the realm best time, but to dominate the competition.

There isn't a single argument that has enough validity to justify Blizzard's decision to remove the titles from the players that earned them.

1] "The content isn't relevant, why should the rewards be?"
For the nine years I have been playing World of Warcraft, I haven't EVER heard anyone say anything like this. The prestige of a reward has absolutely no connection to the relevance of content. Let rank-one gladiator titles be a World of Warcraft reference. As for a real-world reference, consider ANY sport that yields a trophy. Athletes collect trophies to show what they achieved; they don't destroy them the second a competition is over because it isn't relevant anymore.

2] "...but the point was to encourage friendly competition against people you see standing around town on a regular basis."
When has "friendly competition" ever been a motivation to do anything in World of Warcraft? We dominate the challenge modes on every server we have completed them on, NO one will out-perform us. We've made sure of that since we committed to doing them competitively. I know the same stands true for many other groups in World of Warcraft, and players with this dedication and determination deserve to be rewarded justly.

3] "Future players won't have access to the titles, and that isn't fair."
During the first tier of Wrath of the Lich King, I missed out on "The Immortal" title by 15% on Kel'thuzad, Black Protodrake by one achievement, and the Plagued Protodrake by one achievement. Of course it hurts to miss these rewards, but their removal solidified their prestige. I don't whine because I don't have them, it drove me to try harder in Ulduar. There is nothing wrong with letting a limited percent of the community revel in a reward that they worked hard to earn.

As stated before, I am utterly disgusted with Blizzard's stance on this subject. It doesn't help that Bashiok made several comments stating that these rewards would persist. That being said, I hope my perspective on the points listed above can provide some progress for the players that deserve to keep these titles. My group, myself, and players like us have spent the better part of six months making this a reality -- the same as players who PvP competitively -- and to be treated this way brings nothing but disgust and upset.

Please don't betray us; our time and effort is as important to us as the money we pay is to you. Let us keep these titles that we earned.
Edited by Clamsoda on 4/3/2014 12:02 AM PDT
100 Pandaren Mage
22095
The odds of server first title holders being beaten at the last minute are pretty slim. If it happened, I wouldn't complain, but it's extraordinarily unlikely for most of us.

We pushed times before the announcement of server first titles probably going permanent because we wanted to cement having the titles on our server. When the announcement hit, we pushed for faster times to compete regionally and to cement our having them further.

PVPers have permanent rewards. RBGs get a perma-title. Arena glad holders get a mount. These things on top of feats of strength. What do we get?

If the devs want CMs to be anything more than a "run and done" sort of thing for most of us, we need rewards like perma-titles that aren't just a FoS which nobody is ever going to see.
100 Blood Elf Death Knight
15730
...can snag a title from you without you ever having the chance of getting it back...


a title


There are more than one in the game. Chances are anyone in that situation would be left with at least one to show their work. If they weren't, then clearly they didn't put as much time in on holding their titles as the person who took them.

Allow me to reiterate: I do NOT care if I lose it to a player. I can always suicide into the alliance city and see the person wearing the title. They earned it too. They earned it even more so than I did. They don't deserve to lose it either.

If a title is taken by another player, that's not a temporary title. That's competition and someone beat me. The title is still in game, I just didn't work hard enough for it.

Even if I had no titles at all, this removal would infuriate me on behalf of the dedicated players in the CM community.

EDIT:
But the people who put in the time should have expected to lose them in the first place.


No. I don't expect to lose them. I have zero idea how hard our competitors are working, so I always crank it up a little higher in dedication when I see a new time on the leaderboard. I know, without a doubt, that if I work harder than them, we will have the titles in the end.
Edited by Cryoxene on 4/3/2014 12:06 AM PDT
90 Blood Elf Priest
14460
I don't understand. People comp for PvP, they comp for PvE, and CM's were something new and refreshing so of course people would comp for those too.

Players have gone to dead realms for many things in the past. How is this different?

Blizzard has something fun that they added to the game, and now it's basically run it for golds and then what?

There are so many titles and mounts for people who have done things in the past for PvP and old raids, how is this any different?

I hope next expansion you really think of some competitive rewards for people who love CM's as much as any other aspect of the game. If you don't do that, it's going to be farmed and forgotten =(
90 Pandaren Shaman
17240
04/02/2014 11:56 PMPosted by Spektro
04/02/2014 11:51 PMPosted by Cryoxene
CMs don't work like that.

You cannot just "plan" to be done like that.


What do you mean? I can't plan to be logged in at about 11 and try? I'm not saying people would be done exactly at 11:59, as that obviously is an extreme example.

What I mean is the very real possibility that someone can snag a title from you without you ever having the chance of getting it back.

And I meant that to explain, once again, that the titles are temporary, meaning they could be taken away at any time with no recourse from you. And that applies to every single title.

Does it suck to lose them? Sure it does, I appreciate that, I'm not oblivious to the amount of work people put into them. But the people who put in the time should have expected to lose them in the first place.


No, they shouldn't have expected to lose them in first place. You clearly haven't been paying attention. Also, a team log in hours before and TRY to push it, without the guarantee. At the same time you can see them online and in the dungeon and be competing with them as well. And if you lose, you still have eight other titles.
90 Night Elf Warrior
11285
04/02/2014 12:19 PMPosted by Tenby
we must rally this is unacceptable....darkmaster is perhaps coolest title in game you can't just go removing it willy nilly!


I would agree with you if Challenge Modes(CMs) were based around a balanced 463 game. As it stands on live realms, to do so would be like comparing classes at level 50 to max level. It so far from balanced its not even funny. Take for instance you, a Brewmaster. You do more damage in CMs then dps, much like prot warriors do more damage at level 50 then DPS.... CMs were never a balanced scenario and to treat them like a true competitive environment is wrong. The competitive side of PVE is best left to Heroic raiding and in WoD, Mythic Raiding. That environment isn't perfect but it is much is much more balanced then CMs.
Edited by River on 4/3/2014 12:10 AM PDT
100 Pandaren Mage
22095
I think devs should be asking what sort of tone they want to set with CMs. Whatever decision they make here is going to influence how people play in Warlords - if the titles get to stay with us, then CMs will be much more competitive in Warlords than they were this expac. If the titles are indeed temporary and are removed, CMs will be very uncompetitive outside some minor server rivalries over them and maybe a handful of groups that care about regional times.

We want competitive CMs in Warlords, don't ruin it for us.
90 Pandaren Shaman
17240
04/03/2014 12:09 AMPosted by River
04/02/2014 12:19 PMPosted by Tenby
we must rally this is unacceptable....darkmaster is perhaps coolest title in game you can't just go removing it willy nilly!


I would agree with you if Challenge Modes(CMs) were based around a balanced 463 game. As it stands on live realms, to do so would be like comparing classes at level 50 to max level. It so far from balanced its not even funny. Take for instance you, a Brewmaster. You do more damage in CMs then dps, much like prot warriors do more damage at level 50 then DPS.... CMs were never a balanced scenario and to treat them like a true competitive environment is wrong. The competitive side of PVE is best left to Heroic raiding and in WoD, Mythic Raiding. That environment isn't perfect but it is much is much more balanced then CMs.


I would agree with you if Challenge Modes weren't supposed to be competitive in nature. But they are, Blizzard has said this. And the removal of the titles removes all motivation for the majority of competitive Challenge Mode runners. So they're really shooting themselves in the foot by eliminating A LOT of replay value in their content.
100 Blood Elf Death Knight
15730
Take for instance you, a Brewmaster. You do more damage in CMs then dps


I gem crit in heroic raiding purely for the damage. I also do more damage than a DPS. In CMs and outside of them. I am also not a brewmaster. Warriors do the same. So 3 tanks are certain to do more damage than DPS, and I would definitely assume Bears and Paladins also do more if only because of the extreme vengeance we get from the crazy pulling. Anyone can replicate this experience, so how is it unfair?

Also, in that vein, if we're being competitive in raiding, class stacking/control based on who's on top dps wise has always been the way that game was played.

In CMs our gear is still 463, yes we have more gems, but so does everyone else. Anyone who can run a ToT LFR can make a suitable realm best CM set.
Edited by Cryoxene on 4/3/2014 12:15 AM PDT
100 Pandaren Mage
22095
04/03/2014 12:09 AMPosted by River
04/02/2014 12:19 PMPosted by Tenby
we must rally this is unacceptable....darkmaster is perhaps coolest title in game you can't just go removing it willy nilly!


I would agree with you if Challenge Modes(CMs) were based around a balanced 463 game. As it stands on live realms, to do so would be like comparing classes at level 50 to max level. It so far from balanced its not even funny. Take for instance you, a Brewmaster. You do more damage in CMs then dps, much like prot warriors do more damage at level 50 then DPS.... CMs were never a balanced scenario and to treat them like a true competitive environment is wrong. The competitive side of PVE is best left to Heroic raiding and in WoD, Mythic Raiding. That environment isn't perfect but it is much is much more balanced then CMs.

The reason for this occuring is the CM "season" lasting the entire expac instead of ending with each patch the way PVP seasons do. Classes were rebalanced and retuned numerous times throughout the expac with changes to vengeance, talents and AOE abilities, resulting in the balance we have here at the end. If CM "seasons" worked like PVP seasons and the leaderboards were reset with each content patch, the system would work a lot better than it does now.
100 Draenei Paladin
15160
04/03/2014 12:00 AMPosted by Charmander
The odds of server first title holders being beaten at the last minute are pretty slim.


Agreed, but it's still a non-zero chance. The titles (as stated by the developer himself) were meant as temporary, to generate excitement and competition. I personally feel it was a bad idea adding them in the first place, as it could not end well in this kind of super high level competition where people would actively try and break the game as much as possible to retain an "unbeatable" best time.

No disrespect to people who strived to obtain those, but it's too unbalanced to ever be fair. That's not a competition the way I see it. It's only about who can stack the odds the most in their favor. And titles (particularly permanent ones) in my opinion shouldn't be given because certain people made the "right" choice at the character selection screen.

04/03/2014 12:00 AMPosted by Cryoxene
There are more than one in the game. Chances are anyone in that situation would be left with at least one to show their work.


Again, there's a non-zero possibility that you could lose every single one of your titles despite your best efforts. If you can come to terms with that, then certainly you can understand them being removed. You may not LIKE it (and in no way I'm asking anyone to like it, I dislike it myself), but if they were meant to be permanent rewards, they would be. I don't think the guys who make this game like having to remove stuff that people expect to be permanent.

Except in this case, it was apparently not meant to be permanent, hence their removal.

04/03/2014 12:00 AMPosted by Cryoxene
I can always suicide into the alliance city and see the person wearing the title.


Unless the players who got the titles decide they no longer like the game after WoD and cancel their subscription. In which case the title is lost forever (like most scarab lords, conquerors of naxxramas, etc.).

Anyway I'm done here. We'll just have to agree to disagree. Maybe they'll listen to your concerns and you get to keep your titles, and I hope they think it over multiple times before ever adding stuff like that in the game. It seems to be a lot more headache than it's worth.
90 Pandaren Shaman
17240
Again, there's a non-zero possibility that you could lose every single one of your titles despite your best efforts. If you can come to terms with that, then certainly you can understand them being removed. You may not LIKE it (and in no way I'm asking anyone to like it, I dislike it myself), but if they were meant to be permanent rewards, they would be. I don't think the guys who make this game like having to remove stuff that people expect to be permanent.

There's a non-zero chance that someone can push the night before an arena season ends and knock you out of a title slot. Those should be removed too then right?
Edited by Lights on 4/3/2014 12:21 AM PDT
90 Human Hunter
9650
Sorry if this has been suggested before (it may well have), but I see a pretty simple and completely fair solution. First, for this season only, when WoD comes give EVERYONE who ever had the temporary title the permanent title (as others have said). Then, going forwards in WoD, change the system slightly.

During the expansion, the title would be passed to the fastest players as it does currently. But there would be a base time for the CMs which, if a player beats, would qualify them to receive the title permanently AFTER the expansion. This time could be tweaked as new content comes out, if new gear would make it easier (even with scaling, just due to the stats/bonuses/makeup). But as long as a group ever beat the base time(s), even if they didn't do well enough to earn the title temporarily while the expansion was going, they would qualify for the permanent title at the end of the expansion.

I can't see any way in which this would be unfair to anybody.

Now, with this being said, I have never done a single challenge mode and will never earn a title. But based on what I know about the system and what has been expressed in this thread, I really feel for the people who are losing titles and believe there are much fairer ways to handle it. Whether it be something like my suggestion, or something totally different, SOMETHING needs to be done.
100 Draenei Paladin
15160
04/03/2014 12:20 AMPosted by Lights
There's a non-zero chance that someone can push the night before an arena season ends and knock you out of a title slot. Those should be removed too then right?


Arena titles ARE removed. The only permanent title is the r1 title (like Grievous Gladiator) and those are earned by a percentage of players, not a single one. There's a difference.
100 Blood Elf Death Knight
15730
I personally feel it was a bad idea adding them in the first place, as it could not end well in this kind of super high level competition where people would actively try and break the game as much as possible to retain an "unbeatable" best time.


You're done in the thread, but I feel this is worth addressing anyway since it's a commonly held belief.

We don't break the game. Breaking the game is exploitation and, by that token, is deeply unfair. We use what is already available in game to take these titles. Invisibility potions (which, btw, most top times do not even use), DPS potions that don't scale down, maxing gem sockets (which also don't scale), the "toys" blizzard added to the pandaria rares like the Salyin Battle Banner, and stuff like that. That's not breaking the game; that's creating creative strategies with available resources.

EDIT: I've never seen mobs being "bugged" out in CMs. I've had them bug out naturally on us before, and that always required a reset. More than likely anyone believing we bug mobs out on purpose just doesn't see the instantaneous communication of coordinated threat drops.
Edited by Cryoxene on 4/3/2014 12:25 AM PDT
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