Realm Best CM titles

100 Troll Mage
23990
04/03/2014 12:17 AMPosted by Spektro
04/03/2014 12:00 AMPosted by Charmander
The odds of server first title holders being beaten at the last minute are pretty slim.


Agreed, but it's still a non-zero chance. The titles (as stated by the developer himself) were meant as temporary, to generate excitement and competition. I personally feel it was a bad idea adding them in the first place, as it could not end well in this kind of super high level competition where people would actively try and break the game as much as possible to retain an "unbeatable" best time.

No disrespect to people who strived to obtain those, but it's too unbalanced to ever be fair. That's not a competition the way I see it. It's only about who can stack the odds the most in their favor. And titles (particularly permanent ones) in my opinion shouldn't be given because certain people made the "right" choice at the character selection screen.

It has worked that way in PVP for many, many years. Some comps and specs are just not viable in a given season. This particular season is one of the first in years where a very wide variety of classes and specs are viable for high ratings.

As for "breaking the game", the very nature of 5-man dungeons causes this. Elevators will mean mobs will be evade bugged, if items can be used in the dungeons they will be, if consumables can be used in the dungeons they will be. If speccing leatherworking to use BC speed drums that still work three expansions later is going to give us a 20-30 second advantage over other groups, we will do it.
Edited by Charmander on 4/3/2014 12:23 AM PDT
100 Draenei Paladin
16765
04/03/2014 12:21 AMPosted by Trismegiste
Sorry if this has been suggested before (it may well have), but I see a pretty simple and completely fair solution. First, for this season only, when WoD comes give EVERYONE who ever had the temporary title the permanent title (as others have said). Then, going forwards in WoD, change the system slightly.


That sounds very reasonable to me.
90 Orc Death Knight
13365
04/03/2014 12:00 AMPosted by Clamsoda
I am well aware that the chance my post is going to be read by anyone that matters -- and considered seriously -- is very low; but let this be a testament to my passion regarding the topic.

I am absolutely disgusted with this display of disregard for the time and effort invested by players. Some of us have spent hundreds of hours farming gear, consumables, re-rolling classes and creating strategies to not only get the realm best time, but to dominate the competition.

There isn't a single argument that has enough validity to justify Blizzard's decision to remove the titles from the players that earned them.

1] "The content isn't relevant, why should the rewards be?"
For the nine years I have been playing World of Warcraft, I haven't EVER heard anyone say anything like this. The prestige of a reward has absolutely no connection to the relevance of content. Let rank-one gladiator titles be a World of Warcraft reference. As for a real-world reference, consider ANY sport that yields a trophy. Athletes collect trophies to show what they achieved; they don't destroy them the second a competition is over because it isn't relevant anymore.

2] "...but the point was to encourage friendly competition against people you see standing around town on a regular basis."
When has "friendly competition" ever been a motivation to do anything in World of Warcraft? We dominate the challenge modes on every server we have completed them on, NO one will out-perform us. We've made sure of that since we committed to doing them competitively. I know the same stands true for many other groups in World of Warcraft, and players with this dedication and determination deserve to be rewarded justly.

3] "Future players won't have access to the titles, and that isn't fair."
During the first tier of Wrath of the Lich King, I missed out on "The Immortal" title by 15% on Kel'thuzad, Black Protodrake by one achievement, and the Plagued Protodrake by one achievement. Of course it hurts to miss these rewards, but their removal solidified their prestige. I don't whine because I don't have them, it drove me to try harder in Ulduar. There is nothing wrong with letting a limited percent of the community revel in a reward that they worked hard to earn.

As stated before, I am utterly disgusted with Blizzard's stance on this subject. It doesn't help that Bashiok made several comments stating that these rewards would persist. That being said, I hope my perspective on the points listed above can provide some progress for the players that deserve to keep these titles. My group, myself, and players like us have spent the better part of six months making this a reality -- the same as players who PvP competitively -- and to be treated this way brings nothing but disgust and upset.

Please don't betray us; our time and effort is as important to us as the money we pay is to you. Let us keep these titles that we earned.


So much this.
100 Night Elf Hunter
21280
04/03/2014 12:17 AMPosted by Spektro
It's only about who can stack the odds the most in their favor.


And? This describes lots of things. Heck, it reminds me of my days of flying around playing in national TCG tournaments.

So the balance is flawed. So what -- that doesn't ever stop them from running PVP seasons.
90 Blood Elf Priest
14460
I find it funny people are bringing up inbalance in CM's, yet the same thing happens in PvP and raids. Obviously certain classes will be overpowered, but it's no different than anything else.

This is why you have alts.
90 Orc Death Knight
1005
I really hope that you do the same with Brawlers Guild. Impliment FoS showing highest rank achieved and then for WoD created a new "Season" with different rewards and bosses. The exception perhaps being the Brawler title, as im not sure what else would be appropriate her. but a rank 10 mount of something fitting to WoD give another goal without diminishing the achievement of other in MoP.
90 Undead Warrior
18120
04/03/2014 12:40 AMPosted by Vishtara
I find it funny people are bringing up inbalance in CM's, yet the same thing happens in PvP and raids. Obviously certain classes will be overpowered, but it's no different than anything else.

This is why you have alts.


Jk rewards are character bound.

In regards to the raid thing; The rewards are stagnant. They are there forever for people to get and ever since Wrath the completion of the requirements for the rewards are not based on other people.
Edited by Schwert on 4/3/2014 12:48 AM PDT
90 Blood Elf Priest
14460
Character bound awards never bothered me. To be honest, I half expected them to unlock all the transmog gear when I read the mount change, but I was happy they didn't go that far.
90 Pandaren Shaman
17490
Arena titles ARE removed. The only permanent title is the r1 title (like Grievous Gladiator) and those are earned by a percentage of players, not a single one. There's a difference.


Actually, prior to the merging of battlegroups they only went to the top team in a battlegroup, just like titles only go to the top team on the server. Going forward, it should probably be percentage based. There is no difference.

04/03/2014 12:46 AMPosted by Schwert
04/03/2014 12:40 AMPosted by Vishtara
I find it funny people are bringing up inbalance in CM's, yet the same thing happens in PvP and raids. Obviously certain classes will be overpowered, but it's no different than anything else.

This is why you have alts.


Jk rewards are character bound.

In regards to the raid thing; The rewards are stagnant. They are there forever for people to get and ever since Wrath the completion of the requirements for the rewards are not based on other people.


I'm not understanding your point I'm sorry. Could you clarify? Not all raid rewards have been there for ever. There are SO MANY examples of things that you can no longer get but the rewards have remained for those who had them.
90 Pandaren Warrior
16375
I don't see why Watcher seems to think that once they make something a specific way, they can't change it anymore. Everything changes all the time, from classes to raids, to jp/vp rewards, to how they are earned, to where you get coins from etc etc.

Why is this the ONLY thing that can't possibly change? Make a post saying how it will be for this xpac, then add in to it how it will be going forward. It really isn't that hard is it?

"Due to the late addition of the titles from realm fastest challenge modes, we feel is it wrong to remove the title from all those who've obtained the FoS at one time or another. That being said, going forward in to Warlords, it will be limited to a single group per realm"

There, I did your work for you. Feel free to change anything you wish, but I would like to get the credit for the copy/paste.
90 Draenei Hunter
10740
I don't understand what would have been the issue with allowing only the people who held the titles last before servers went down for the 6.0 patch to keep them permanently. I agree that it would be a bad idea to allow anyone who ever achieved a realm-best time to keep the titles, as times have come down substantially. I also understand the issue with the titles being server-bound.

But why do they have to be? Titles like Scarab Lord will transfer with you when you change servers, so you can have multiples of them on one server even though only one of them may have opened the AQ gates there. Same thing with realm-first boss kills. So what's the issue with permanently giving everyone who held a realm-best time, when 6.0 hits, those titles permanently?

If Blizz is just catering to the "everyone needs to feel special" crowd then so be it, but then it was a massively stupid decision to ever put the titles in in the first place. It wouldn't surprise me, though...there are very few exclusive rewards in this game any more. It's the reason I will probably never wear another title than Immortal, because basically every other title I have (granted I don't have many good ones, I just came back to the game after a long hiatus) has zero value now. It still annoys me seeing noobs running around with Light of Dawn, as someone who wiped endlessly on HLK back when it was current content. Allowing anyone to have those titles is a slap in the face to those who worked for them, just as removing these CM titles is a slap in the face to those who worked for them.
90 Blood Elf Monk
0
If you think that realm best times are meaningless without a time to show for them, why are you bothering to do them in the first place? Skill, competition, and knowing tthat you're the best are all clearly irrelevant to you, so why bother? Or is it just because you want other people to talk about how awesome you are?

I have most of the monk CM set transmogged because I like it, but I'm sorely tempted to undo that just because so many people are looking to get such rewards just to show off and brag about their accomplishments, and I want as little to do with such arrogant braggarts as possible.
90 Undead Priest
13205
The CM titles should be given to the top 0.5% in the US and then carried over to future expansions.

Some nobody who does a 15 minute Jade Temple on "Galakrod's Fist realm II" shouldn't get the same reward as the team who does it in 4 minutes on a super server.
90 Troll Druid
21850
I'm sure this has been suggested, but again, I'm going to reiterate that the titles should be a FoS and account wide for being in the top 1% (example) of the CM ladder when the season ends in future seasons(not referring to how the feats currently work).

They should be account wide because class balance was poor this xpac at competitive levels. That's totally fine if I have to play frost mage or destro or disc or brewmaster to get a competitive region time, but that's not my main and being able to reroll and min/max that character at those levels demonstrates a person's abilities as a player in these dungeons. It shouldn't be limited to one character if you can't maintain class balance at CM ilvls throughout the whole expansion because we want to show off the titles on whatever class we decide to play after we earn them.

While I understand some of Ion's reasoning behind the decision to remove titles, doing so will kill what little competition that exists now, rather than expanding on it. If you set the precedent that all CM titles are temporary, no one will push times like some did this expansion.

Basically, take a page out of the PvP book for rewards regarding CMs. The precedent is already set there, which is why I am surprised you didn't arrive at that solution after reading the developers' thoughts on making titles FoS-bound.

Removal is the laziest option that makes everyone lose. FoS-tied (current feats in MoP) is another lazy option that makes everyone win. Sifting through the ladder is not a lazy option, but makes the most sense. For future competition in CM's, I hope you consider this proposal that many others have also suggested.
Edited by Dolson on 4/3/2014 4:11 AM PDT
90 Troll Druid
21850
04/03/2014 01:37 AMPosted by Sofex
I don't see why Watcher seems to think that once they make something a specific way, they can't change it anymore. Everything changes all the time, from classes to raids, to jp/vp rewards, to how they are earned, to where you get coins from etc etc.

Why is this the ONLY thing that can't possibly change? Make a post saying how it will be for this xpac, then add in to it how it will be going forward. It really isn't that hard is it?

"Due to the late addition of the titles from realm fastest challenge modes, we feel is it wrong to remove the title from all those who've obtained the FoS at one time or another. That being said, going forward in to Warlords, it will be limited to a single group per realm"

There, I did your work for you. Feel free to change anything you wish, but I would like to get the credit for the copy/paste.


To add to this Feat idea, I can understand some people would feel that with the way Feats currently work, that I for example, wouldn't "deserve" these titles. I did my times with as moonkin with friends playing ret, prot pala, rdruid, and ele sham. I didn't attempt to play a warlock because I was under the impression that the titles would be character specific and/or bound to Feats (because of twitter and blue posts). We could have shaved minutes off with a disc and brewmaster of my times. We did very risky pulls in all but SM (which is the most class specific anyway) used war banners, invis belts, BiS ToT gear, blink through the Seige wall roleplay, etc.

There's no way to consider everyone's circumstances, but adding titles to the MoP feats avoids turning us all away from competition in the future. Again, I like top 1% of ladder idea, if titles are acct. wide. You can change the rewards in the future, while keeping it competitive, just establish the system well in advance.
Edited by Dolson on 4/3/2014 4:45 AM PDT
1 Human Monk
0
I don't understand as to why the current realm record holders when 6.0 hit can't keep the titles, makes no sense.
1 Human Monk
0
04/03/2014 02:48 AMPosted by Facehurt
The CM titles should be given to the top 0.5% in the US and then carried over to future expansions.

Some nobody who does a 15 minute Jade Temple on "Galakrod's Fist realm II" shouldn't get the same reward as the team who does it in 4 minutes on a super server.


This would be something I totally agree with, but it'd have to only count 1 timer / person, otherwhise there'd be like 15-20 people with titles in EU as the leaderboard for every dungeon is filled with 3-4 different groups.
Edited by Rachelzane on 4/3/2014 5:28 AM PDT
1 Human Monk
0
04/03/2014 12:00 AMPosted by Cryoxene
...can snag a title from you without you ever having the chance of getting it back...


a title


There are more than one in the game. Chances are anyone in that situation would be left with at least one to show their work. If they weren't, then clearly they didn't put as much time in on holding their titles as the person who took them.

Allow me to reiterate: I do NOT care if I lose it to a player. I can always suicide into the alliance city and see the person wearing the title. They earned it too. They earned it even more so than I did. They don't deserve to lose it either.

If a title is taken by another player, that's not a temporary title. That's competition and someone beat me. The title is still in game, I just didn't work hard enough for it.

Even if I had no titles at all, this removal would infuriate me on behalf of the dedicated players in the CM community.

EDIT:
But the people who put in the time should have expected to lose them in the first place.


No. I don't expect to lose them. I have zero idea how hard our competitors are working, so I always crank it up a little higher in dedication when I see a new time on the leaderboard. I know, without a doubt, that if I work harder than them, we will have the titles in the end.


This, so much.

Our hunter has killed tortos LFR 105 times, he still doesn't have the crit bracers, I've killed twin consorts 73 times on my monk, I still don't have crit bracers, our shaman has killed the troll council thingy boss 50+ times, he gave up after getting haste bracers.

Me and the hunter have both killed ra-den 8 times since going for CM gear and both coined every time and not gotten what we went for.

We've spent thousands of thousands of gold on: Flasks, food buff, pots (darkwater & dps), rerolling professions (me and priest both switched from previous professions to LW for drums of speed, which also are freakishly expensive since none of us have skinning, and others didn't have alchemy so they had to get that for trinkets, and someone didn't have engineering etc etc).

It took me 32 kills to get salyin warbanner, it took me 18 kills to get battle horn, and another 5 kills to get the amber rod for CC, some in my team still don't have the amber rod, months later.

We spent hours on hours disgussing tactics, working out a way to completely annihilate any competition we have on the realm, just to make sure, we do not lose these titles, oh and not to mention I was our hunter before, then our warrior tank quit so I had to reroll monk, we had to find a new hunter and now we just beat our old times we already had by quite a bit, and now we find out just a few weeks later, that we went through ALL of this for nothing.
Absolutely nothing, we already had all the feats of strength, man, I even have the titles on my DK on a less competitive realm (still not a dead realm), I've had the feats of strengths there since day one of 5.4, I could care less about them, the titles are the ONLY thing that I even do CM's for anymore, and CM's is the only thing I find enjoyable in the game right now.

"Why don't you raid?" you may ask, I do, I raid one night per week and clear 14/14 hc.

"What about alts?" Well, considering I have 2 legendary cloaks, and 2 characters on runestones, and 10 other characters I'm not interested in playing at all, there isn't much I can do with them other than normal SoO with a few HC bosses, which takes one night with a few guildies.

TL;DR: My group spent days (literally days on end) farming gear / rares and a retarded amount of gold on professions / consumables (I'm talking 200k+ gold spent on this), and then on top of that we spent hours on strats and wiping / reseting because the run wasn't perfect, just to get that perfect run and in the end, they take away the only reason we did it for, thanks.
90 Troll Druid
21850
@rachelzane

This is why I don't understand their decision still. I hope Watcher reads this full thread. Everyone has a different story. The thing everyone shares though, is that in some way we all did not expect the titles to be removed when they were implemented. The developers look at your situation and everyone else's and essentially decided that none of us deserve a title rather than being rational and giving them to the top few or everyone. Players suffer because they messed up the implementation of CM titles.

Nobody right-clicks your character in game and in the drop down menu selects compare achievements and looks for what feats of strength you have. They are pretty poor ways of recognizing accomplishment unless they have a quickly recognizable reward attached to them such as a mount or title.
Edited by Dolson on 4/3/2014 6:16 AM PDT
90 Undead Mage
15015
This is a common problem with Blizzard and handling PvE type rewards. Ever since Ulduar, PvE'ers have gotten nothing for a prestigious long lasting keep sake, whereas PvPers have lost nothing. They get improved version of weapon enchants, they get tabards that are always removed, mounts that are always removed and for the select few (which also requires at specific comp to obtain most of the time) a permanent title.
This topic has reached its post limit. You may no longer post or reply to posts for this topic.

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]