Is it not possible to balance lower levels?

61 Night Elf Hunter
680
So I've been leveling up this hunter alt, thinking "Yea, hunters may suck in PvP right now, but at least it's a decent challenge."

...Until I hit the level 60 bracket. Things were rough before, sure. Now the BGs are essentially unplayable. I have ~5500 health unbuffed. Rogues Ambush me for 4k, then evisc for another ~4k. Boomkins crit Starsurge for 4k, Mages hit for about the same, Prot paladins can stunlock then crit/silence me with Avengers shield that hits for ~2k, etc. etc. etc. My strongest shot)as survival) crits for about 1.2k (explosive shot can crit 3x, sure, but that's extremely rare). The point being is that i'm getting 2 shot by nearly every class that I've come against and have no way to react or retaliate. I can't speak to all classes/specs, because I haven't seen them all in action yet at this level. I just finished leveling my rogue from 70 to 80 as well, and was most definitely one of those who was 2 shotting everybody. It isn't fun, it shouldn't be happening. Rogues aren't the only ones guilty, and it isn't their fault. It's pure design flaw.

So, my question: Is it really not possible to balance the game well enough that the lower levels aren't just an afterthought? I mean really, the game should be "fun" at ALL levels. Not just for some classes that are over-tuned either, but for ALL classes. I love leveling up in BGs, and even back in Vanilla and BC I would do BGs while leveling for fun/honor/titles/whatever. Right now though it's almost pointless unless you're leveling one of the OP classes.

Sadly I know that the Blues don't respond to this stuff anymore, I'm just kinda hoping they actually see how many people are upset with the design and make an effort to change things.I don't want to run around on my Worgen while leveling it and get frustrated because it isn't possible to survive in PvP.

PvE is at least somewhat more balanced, though the tank changes for lower level dungeons suck as well. I pull aggro more now on this character than I ever have on anything(except maybe my mage back in Vanilla as well).
Edited by Souiki on 12/8/2010 7:02 AM PST
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61 Night Elf Hunter
680
12/05/2010 7:20 PMPosted by Mistkeeper
It does seem ridiculous that resilience acts as the only real fix for pvp damage, but completely disregards all levels below max.


This is very true. I can't begin to tell you how much I wish there were lower level resilience sets that gave about 30% damage reduction. Or for that matter, even lowering damage by 30% as soon as you set foot in a BG that's below level 80 so you can use whatever gear you've got. Damage in low level BGs is out of control. Anyone who argues that point is either trolling or just doesn't know any better, really.

Lowering damage would pose a problem when it comes to healers too though. Some healers (read: Holy Paladins) are far too strong even without having damage reduction.

Also: in before elitists saying "85 is all that matters". heh.
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49 Human Warlock
700
Have you guys every PVP'ed before 4.0 in lower brackets? They were perfectly balanced.....all you need was to be a good player, farm some blue gear in dungeons while you are still 20-25....get the proper spec, and know how to counter other classes with your abilities.

I have leveled a hunter and lock to 49, and a pally, druid, dk all they way to 80 mainly thru PVP without ever feeling like it was unbalanced as long as you weren't a noob.


They will get the balance down soon, but they have to focus on 85 and go from there. When game goes live they get tons more info, just like after the 4.0 patch we got a few waves of hotfixes.

One main reason is figuring out what lvl is appropriate for new spells and abilites. For example, hunters used to have disengage at low lvls, then they changed it to lvl 78...and just recently back again to mid 20's. That's important for pvp balance since it's a counter to melee that they really needed to compete.....more changes like that will come.
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85 Undead Mage
4210
They should just add an aura to low level BGs that reduces all damage dealt by X%.
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79 Troll Hunter
1280
Apart from lowbie rogue one-shotting (which happened to pretty much everyone), I haven't been experiencing huge issues, and I did BGs constantly as I leveled. I agree that low level brackets are imbalanced, but hunters don't have it that bad there.

If anything, from what I've read, resilience screws hunters over who rely on murdering people in one focus bar. My big problem has been healing classes who survive my initial burst, then throw up one HoT to negate all my steady shots as I bang my head against my desk. I'd say the most OP thing in low brackets is healers... but I'd still rather healers be overpowered than underpowered.
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61 Night Elf Hunter
680
12/05/2010 8:00 PMPosted by Lunescar
Have you guys every PVP'ed before 4.0 in lower brackets? They were perfectly balanced.....all you need was to be a good player, farm some blue gear in dungeons while you are still 20-25....get the proper spec, and know how to counter other classes with your abilities.

I have leveled a hunter and lock to 49, and a pally, druid, dk all they way to 80 mainly thru PVP without ever feeling like it was unbalanced as long as you weren't a noob.


They will get the balance down soon, but they have to focus on 85 and go from there. When game goes live they get tons more info, just like after the 4.0 patch we got a few waves of hotfixes.

One main reason is figuring out what lvl is appropriate for new spells and abilites. For example, hunters used to have disengage at low lvls, then they changed it to lvl 78...and just recently back again to mid 20's. That's important for pvp balance since it's a counter to melee that they really needed to compete.....more changes like that will come.


I've done BGs on every character I've leveled since Vanilla from usually level 15+, actually. With the introduction of good exp to BGs, I've leveled almost exclusively in them since then. The only time I do PvE while leveling anymore is if I just feel like doing a dungeon, or if I want/need to upgrade my gear a little to remain competitive in the BGs.
So, yes, I know quite well that things USED to be more balanced. Still though, there have always been balance issues. Back in BC I think it was when I first made this guy..I was untouchable in low level BGs. So much so, that I stopped leveling him because it was boring. I try very hard not to play the OP FotM classes, because I don't like being able to destroy everybody I come across without any thought or skill required. Hence the reason I'm leveling this guy now.

Things were going decently for me as a hunter, like I said in the OP, until I hit 60. Rogues could still 2 shot me, but most of the other classes weren't able to just insanely out-burst me before I could at least get off a full focus bar and 1 steady shot. Now, however, nearly every class seems to be able to destroy me before I can return maybe 1/2 of the damage they do. The health pools are exactly the same, but the damage is different.

I don't say that I want the classes nerfed, far from it. I just want the ability, in low level BGs, to survive more than 3 globals. I imagine there are plenty of others out there who feel the same.
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61 Night Elf Hunter
680
12/05/2010 9:57 PMPosted by Dreckan
Apart from lowbie rogue one-shotting (which happened to pretty much everyone), I haven't been experiencing huge issues, and I did BGs constantly as I leveled. I agree that low level brackets are imbalanced, but hunters don't have it that bad there.

If anything, from what I've read, resilience screws hunters over who rely on murdering people in one focus bar. My big problem has been healing classes who survive my initial burst, then throw up one HoT to negate all my steady shots as I bang my head against my desk. I'd say the most OP thing in low brackets is healers... but I'd still rather healers be overpowered than underpowered.


Resilience would screw over the hunter to an extent without a doubt. But I think that, at lower levels at least, being able to survive long enough to use the tools the hunter class has would be enough to actually be competitive. As it is right now, I can't even be that. As soon as a class (most of what I come across in BGs right now are druids, rogues, mages, protadins) targets me and decides I'm the one they want to kill, I have almost no chance of retaliation, and no chance to use my bag of tricks. The amount of damage that can be put out while I'm: Stunned, Disarmed, Feared, whatever(which nearly every class/spec has some ability to do now on a low-ish cooldown) is not possible.

Again, just to re-inforce the point: I don't want people nerfed. I'd like to see A: hunter survivability buffs(because they need it at 85 too), and some sort of damage reduction in the lower level BGs that won't also make healers more OP than they already are as well.


I mean really, if the entire game is tuned for 85, which makes most spells/abilities vastly over-tuned for lower levels, there has to be some way to balance that out, ya know?
Edited by Souiki on 12/6/2010 12:05 PM PST
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1 Undead Mage
0
Cost benefit ratio my friend.

The amount of people they will lose if max level PvP isn't properly balanced is far and above what they lose if low level PvP isn't balanced, ergo the priority is focused on spending time and resources on level 80 (or the current max level)
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66 Draenei Shaman
790
im leveling in bgs, currently in the 60 - 65 bracket and I can testify that the balance is complete garbage.

Dmg is out of control, and I'd say the main culprits are prot paladins, feral druids and mages of all specs,..you will find that these are the same classes/specs that are overpowered at 85.

I'm going to hold off on buying cata or renewing my subscription until/if and when they fix pvp
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61 Night Elf Hunter
680
12/06/2010 12:13 PMPosted by Notfrostvein
Cost benefit ratio my friend.

The amount of people they will lose if max level PvP isn't properly balanced is far and above what they lose if low level PvP isn't balanced, ergo the priority is focused on spending time and resources on level 80 (or the current max level)



I won't argue in the slightest. It still doesn't change the fact that it would be extremely nice to be able to survive longer than ~3 globals in lower level BGs. I mean, I guess there are people who enjoy the feeling of "god mode" too, but that doesn't mean it belongs in the game =P
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Balance is pretty awful in the low level BGs, but it doesn't really matter.

I've still been having fun in BGs with my dwarf mage while leveling, and even though Feral Druids and Rogues are pretty OP, and a Boomkin's Starsurge hits like a truck, it's still fun to try to counter them and try to score some kills. Especially with how hilariously awesome Slow is.
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90 Troll Hunter
9405
I'll pretend to be a blue poster.

It's all balanced at 85. For 84 levels you just have to be unbalanced. That last level is the only one we do anything for, anything pre 85 isn't worth our time. Thank you for paying to play before 85.
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85 Human Hunter
3160
12/06/2010 2:19 PMPosted by Souiki
12/06/2010 12:13 PMPosted by Notfrostvein
Cost benefit ratio my friend.

The amount of people they will lose if max level PvP isn't properly balanced is far and above what they lose if low level PvP isn't balanced, ergo the priority is focused on spending time and resources on level 80 (or the current max level)



I won't argue in the slightest. It still doesn't change the fact that it would be extremely nice to be able to survive longer than ~3 globals in lower level BGs. I mean, I guess there are people who enjoy the feeling of "god mode" too, but that doesn't mean it belongs in the game =P



3 globals are about how long Hunters last at 80 so, balanced? And from stories I've heard from the beta that's pretty close to what hunters last at 85 too...

Edit: So glad I don't PVP :p
Edited by Okugi on 12/6/2010 2:43 PM PST
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85 Draenei Warrior
0
12/06/2010 12:13 PMPosted by Notfrostvein
Cost benefit ratio my friend.

The amount of people they will lose if max level PvP isn't properly balanced is far and above what they lose if low level PvP isn't balanced, ergo the priority is focused on spending time and resources on level 80 (or the current max level)


can it really take more than say, a day per class to figure out some ratio and apply a modifier per level?

start at level 79, working down. ok, in full blue gear vs a full blue gear target, heroic strike hits for 32% of their health. thats outside of what we want. we want it at 20%, so lets apply a 12% damage modifier.
next!

one crude pass like that, and you should end up with more people surviving burst situations. you can address the healing issues it creates the same way.

once you get all your results, you can normalize it. maybe you find that 80% of all main attacks are at least 10% too strong and that healing is at least 20% too strong, so you add those as global modifiers for PVP in BGs then do the fine tuning on whats left.
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85 Blood Elf Warlock
2500
12/05/2010 8:00 PMPosted by Lunescar
Have you guys every PVP'ed before 4.0 in lower brackets? They were perfectly balanced.....all you need was to be a good player, farm some blue gear in dungeons while you are still 20-25....get the proper spec, and know how to counter other classes with your abilities.

I have leveled a hunter and lock to 49, and a pally, druid, dk all they way to 80 mainly thru PVP without ever feeling like it was unbalanced as long as you weren't a noob.


They will get the balance down soon, but they have to focus on 85 and go from there. When game goes live they get tons more info, just like after the 4.0 patch we got a few waves of hotfixes.

One main reason is figuring out what lvl is appropriate for new spells and abilites. For example, hunters used to have disengage at low lvls, then they changed it to lvl 78...and just recently back again to mid 20's. That's important for pvp balance since it's a counter to melee that they really needed to compete.....more changes like that will come.


i disagree it isnt and never was balanced below max lvl. there is always a class in each bracket that has just recieved a crucial ability, and a class that is a couple lvls from getting the one they need to be competetive. look at the old 19 and 29 brackets dominated by rogues and hunters because other classes lacked the abilities they needed to fight back.
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